Let’s even the playing field shall we~~

Let’s meet the players in this case…First we have Judge Kenneth R. Lester

Then we have special prosecutor Angela Corey who was assigned to this case

This is the young teenager who was fatally shot by a Neighborhood Watchman on Feb 26, 2012 Trayvon Martin

Next we have George Zimmerman, 28, the Neighborhood Watchman who shot and killed Trayvon.

This one shows Mark O’Mara, lead defense attorney, and prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda

Unredacted 911 call

911 call-Screaming and gunshot heard

US JUSTICE: Prosecution outlines case against Zimmerman in killing of Trayvon Martin

State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman: Affidavit of probable cause

Video of Bond Hearing

Getting the story on George Zimmerman

Judge accepts Zimmerman’s not guilty plea, sets August court date

You have the freedom to voice your opinions on this post. You will NOT be classed as a racist or a slap happy gun owner. I would prefer that we keep political issues and religion at a very minimum. I realize it is election year in the United States but it is best not to campaign for your favorite party on this post. I would love to know your opinions on the Stand Your Ground law and Concealed Weapons permits. Do you think the gov’t is to lax when it comes to who should qualify for a permit? Do you think the Stand Your Ground law should include defending yourself with the use of deadly force on a street? How about on your own property?

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319 Responses to Let’s even the playing field shall we~~

  1. Sherry says:

    Thanks, Snoopy! Will you be posting this case as it goes? I’m not sure I will be.

  2. Sherry~~I will be glad to get my mitts on some of those documents. I hope you will participate here and I can assure you that no one will be calling you a racist.

  3. I will be posting any interesting links that come in my mail alerts.

  4. Sherry says:

    Thanks, Snoopy. I’ll be here then. Maybe when things cool down and the news is old at Dave’s, I’ll read the comment lines. I hate having to leave Dave’s but my BP can’t take it, lol! It wasn’t just me being called that and that got my goat! xo

  5. Laurali says:

    Sherry I did not think that about you. IMO after the last Florida case it is best to have all the facts before making a judgement. If this trial is anything like that trial we will have to wait til opening arguments. Gosh I hope Zimmerman’s parents do not get drug through the wringer like old Georgie Boy.
    I agree it is kind of boring re-hashing. Documents would be good. Any idea when we might get some?

  6. Sherry says:

    Here is a post by Hornsby~
    Legally, Who Was the First Aggressor?

    I don’t think I care too much for the SYG Law if it means that one can shoot dead someone who looks the least bit threatening without at least doing everything to avoid using lethal force. Hornsby addressed why this law came to be in his “Trayvon Martin’s Death is not a Stand Your Ground Case – Sort Of” post. I did have a commentor mention that an elderly person may not be able to retreat but the investigation could put that into consideration. I just think this is too lenient for the shooter and not strict enough for the victim.

    On Concealed Carry, conservative polls over the years show the decline in crime in areas where that is lawful. Again, it depends on the agenda as to how those polls come out. I’m not sure what training civies are given but the police are trained to shoot to maim, not kill. Perhaps more training before a permit is given? In this case though, it is said that Trayvon grabbed Zimmerman’s gun and a struggle ensued. One thing that Zimmerman did not say is that the gun went off in the struggle for control of it.

    SYG should help to protect citizens on the street and definately in their own Castle. But, something has to change so that young men, unarmed, do not get shot to death because of a perceived threat. Another thing, what if a stray bullet hits a non-threatening civilian who has nothing to do with the incident?

  7. Laura~~without the facts, Zimmerman has been tried and convicted of second degree murder. I think he was executed over 100 times on the tweets. This is what gets my goat. Some people have figured out exactly what happened on the evening of Feb 26th…they know all the facts sans any evidence… they speculate and opine and then put a stupid disclaimer on the end of their comments… I felt like putting Cavier…have some. LOL

    We should have those docs soon…the next hearing date is not until Aug 8th and at that time they will be setting a trial date…

  8. Sherry~ ~ thank you. I read that post a few days ago but it was late at night so not too much stuck with me. I will take the time to read it again. I really do like Richard…

  9. Sherry says:

    Thanks, Laurali. If one goes to my blog and just read the titles, like Mason did Dave’s post on the DP, I suppose they could get that idea. Honestly, if you or Snoopy would have said that about me, I would take notice and check myself. But two newbies I’ve never met accused me (and others) of it. Not nice! After that, I just could not make a comment without being dogged. Though I lean toward Trayvon’s side, I don’t want to falsely accuse Zimmerman either. I jumped the gun at first until it was discovered the media did selective editing to make the story more sellable.

    What’s the hold up with those docs? I’m not sure I’m ready to wait 3 years for a trial… 😕

  10. Probable Cause Affidavit in George Zimmerman Case Woefully Inadequate

    I love listening to Curtis of the Guardian Angels… notice he says “unarmed” and this is where Zimmerman did go wrong. He never should have had that concealed weapon and acted in the capacity of a Neighborhood Watchman.

    Curtis Sliwa on what Zimmerman did wrong

  11. shyloh says:

    Sherry ~~ I refuse to let other people put words in my mouth and I felt like I was being brain washed at Dave’s. I have always tried to look at both sides of the coin and I will not change for anyone. High pressure tactics do not work well on me. I should have left Dave’s over a Month ago…when I first said that I would not be commenting anymore but just posting links. What I dislike is people making ‘long rants’ over and over about the same thing, repetitive superfluous fluff. lol

    Dang you can’t be brain washed??? How sad. Anyhow! GOOD FOR YOU! Some think repeating something long enough will actually work getting others to follow. GEESH! Isn’t that called a sheeple? Just guessing. I have read you LONG ENOUGH to know you are your own person and I LOVE THAT…

  12. shyloh says:

    I look at Richard like this. He’s a defense attorney! Sure he can come up with laws to support how the believes. RIGHT??? I always felt that SYG was for in home or auto etc. Not a neighborhood where lots of people walk around. But that’s just me.

  13. Sherry says:

    I respect Dershowitz but his perspective scares me in this case. Why would Angela Corey be so negligible? Or is this the norm for an affidavit? Like Hornsby said, the words in that affidavit were carefully chosen so as to make GZ the aggressor. Ofcourse, O’Mara would be speaking up if Dershowitz’ points were true, no?

  14. Shyloh~~I am a stubborn old cuss. I like to look at both the defense and the prosecution. There were so many against Zimmerman, I thought maybe someone should shed some light on a a few what ifs. We do not know what took place the night of Feb 26th. Was Z the aggressor and cornered Trayvon or did T do a surprise attack and challenge Z. Z got those lacerations on the back of his head and I do not think they were self-inflicted. From what little bit of info we can garner, T was shot at close range. Now did Z have the gun aimed at T and then Trayvon tried to get the gun away from him? These are all unknowns and hopefully if we ever get those documents. they may shed some light and put us closer to figure out what occured. I get myself in trouble If I mention that maybe Z was in fear of his life. I also think that Z did not intentionally set out to kill a black man. It appears that Trayvon was an innocent victim and he would be alive today if it were not for that damn concealed weapon and an amended Stand Your Ground law that added the clause, “you don’t have to retreat.”

  15. Vicky says:

    Hi Snoopy, I have a few minutes of downtime (not too many these days), and thought I might weigh in. I have done my best to view the events of that night from both sides. Try as I might, I cannot excuse GZ for this completely preventable loss of life. Bottom line, you don’t take a handgun to a fist fight. There are many young men sitting in prison right now who did just that.
    It doesn’t matter to me if GZ ended up on the wrong end of a can of whoop-ass. Trayvon was not breaking any laws at the time GZ observed him in the neighborhood. As the “captain” of the Neighborhood Watch, GZ was well aware of the proper procedures for dealing with a suspicious person in the area. His call to 911 was indeed the appropriate response. He should have left it at that. He chose to exit his car, and in doing so, he placed himself and Trayvon at risk. Conceal and Carry advocates will tell you that you should not carry your gun, unless you are willing to use it. GZ was obviously willing. He made several choices that night. He chose to get out of his car. He chose not to leave his gun behind. He chose to take the chance of having a confrontation with the young man he felt was out of place. He chose to ignore the dispatchers request not to to follow the young man. He chose use his gun as a means of ending a fist fight when he found himself getting his butt kicked.
    Granted, no one knows what transpired in those seconds leading up to the shooting, but what we do know is that GZ created the situation that ended in Trayvon’s death. I would be all about standing up for GZ if the roles were reversed, and George had called 911 to report that he was being followed by some strange person and ended up shooting the person who was following him.
    In other words, it would be easier for me to buy into stand your ground if Trayvon had shot GZ. But, had that occurred, I don’t think we would be debating the issue. Trayvon would have been arrested on the spot and GZ would have been viewed as the victim. The case would not have gained national attention. It would have been viewed as some “punk black kid” who brought a gun to a fistfight and shot the poor neighborhood watch guy.
    I hope that made sense.
    I have other opinions about this case, but I’ll reserve them for another time. For now, I’m off to a meeting.

  16. Vicky~~I agree that Zimmerman made a fatal mistake when he pursued Trayvon with that firearm. If he didn’t have that gun in his holster, he would have stayed in the vehicle and not chased after T… he knew that a patrol car was on the way. I can see him getting out of his truck to see which way Trayvon ran to but he never should have pursued him. Just because there had been other break ins at Twin Gates, he did not have the right to be packing a firearm if he put himself in a position of acting as NWatch. That gun gave Z the upperhand and a sense of power.

    The only thing that is going to save Z from being found guilty if this goes to trial is if he can convince a jury that the gun went off during a struggle and T was trying to disarm him.

    Maybe I am way out in left field here but it has crossed my mind that O’Mara is going to try and delay the trial for as long as possible. Just prior to the trial, O’Mara will go for a mini trial before the judge and try to get immunity re the Stand Your Ground…if that fails, Z will plea out and try for a reduced charge of manslaughter. In this way, it will give Z a few more months of freedom, if you can call having to stay in hiding freedom. The judge has insisted that Zimmerman be in attendance at the hearing on August 8th. Who knows, Judge Lester may have reviewed the fund website and will revoke Z’s bond at that time.

  17. Why is Mark O’Mara not anxious for the public to view the documents? There could be a couple reasons… the plea or hoping for more funds to come in to the website??

    Here is what I found at the Orlando Sentinel….

    An attorney for George Zimmerman, the man charged with murder in the Sanford shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, expects to gain access to new evidence soon, but it may not immediately become public.

    In a statement, attorney Mark O’Mara said the first round of documents are expected to be turned over to the defense on Monday as part of a process called discovery.

    George Zimmerman’s attorney may get evidence Monday, could block public release

  18. cali patti says:

    Vicky wrote/said what I felt so I will just “ditto” her comment and she wrote it much better than I would have. I don’t think trying to understand GZ side makes one a racist. I also do not understand how GZ will have much of a defense. Carrying a gun as GZ did, I believe was over-the-top.
    I’ve owned weapons since my 12th B’day when I was given my first rifle. I had to pass a hunters safety course and now own gun safes. I have no loaded unlocked gun in my home. I never travel with a weapon. I don’t have much hope for GZ getting out of doing time over this.

  19. Vicky is unable to comment here for some unknown reason…She sent me this via email… Here is her comment….

    “Snoopy, not to seem cynical, but M.O. Probably wants to delay the trial for as long as possible because, in the meantime, he is hoping there will be other equally unfortunate cases of excessive use of force, where motive of the accused and LE response come into question. And as with many cases where initial public outcry is front and center, interest will move along to the next/newest incident.

    On another note, as I have read comments about this case on different sites, it seems obvious to me that many people have a long way to go when it comes to communicating effectively and fairly about racism and/or racial profiling. I’m not even sure a standard definition of the terms are being applied from one comment to the next.

    Furthermore, it seems to me that many people don’t even realize it when a comment might be viewed as offensive by others. Especially if individuals have never received training in or engaged in civil dialogue about racism, cultural and ethnic diversity and related issues. Therefore, I feel we would all be better served to discuss the legal aspects of this case, as opposed to the racial bias that may or may not have been involved. Based upon what I have read GZ has not been charged with a hate crime. So, IMHO, comments about that type of crime should be reserved for incidents where those charges are warranted and have been applied by the prosecutors.

    I’m not trying to discourage lively discussion, but it seems to me, that a separate thread could be dedicated to whether or not racism, hate crimes, racial profiling, etc. Are alive and well in the world.”

  20. Vicky~~ this post is to discuss the case of the state vs George Zimmerman also concealed weapons and the Stand Your Ground law. Until we see documents to substantiate that this was a hate crime due to racism, then it will not be discussed in this post.

    I will not even entertain the idea of starting a thread to discuss racism or racial profiling. It would be a no win situation as it would be discussing religion and/or politics or someone’s sexual orientation.

    I just watched what happened at Dave’s blog and, although I had offered him my help, I felt compelled to pull away. I had enough being dumbed down my throat to last a lifetime. Dave would never have allowed things to get out of hand but unfortunately he had emergency family issues to attend to. I see he is not allowing any comments on his last post. Dave is our rock and it is a sad situation when there are those who took advantage of his absense at a time when he needed us the most. God willing, things will return to normal at his blog and I will go back. I did leave a comment at Dave’s today in defense of Marks NeJame and O’Mara.

  21. Vicky says:

    Believe me Snoopy, I can fully understand not going down that road. My point was that discussion about racism, etc. Is a topic in and of itself and really has no place in a case where it being a factor in the crime itself is speculative at best.
    It is really sad that people failed to respect Dave’s Blog during his absence. I read there for several days and it was almost like deja vu. There is and will always be people in the world who do not respect boundaries.

    I did find a link on NPR Radio I found interesting as it relates to the stand your ground law and this case.


    It seems the senator who cowrote the Bill in Florida agrees with those ofnus who believe that SYG is not applicable in this case. He also goes on to explain his rational for sponsoring the Bill.

  22. Vicky says:

    Hey, I finally got a comment to post! 🙂

  23. Vicky ~~ I didn’t know a dang thing about SYG laws until this case. The only thing I am familar with is if someone breaks into or forcefully enters your home, you have the right to defend your property, self and anyone else residing or a guest in your residence. If I had a gun and could shoot the thing straight, I would aim for a knee. Knowing me, it would be a castration instead.

  24. cali patti says:

    Snoopy, here the states usually decide concealed weapons permits. There are federal laws for law enforcement personel. Texas has liberal gun carrying laws and for that state it makes sense. You can drive for hours and not see another person. Many people still want to carry money, gems, bank notes etc that feel they need protection. I honestly don’t have a negative opinion about concealed weapon permits however I do question why GZ had a permit to carry. His carrying a gun makes little sense to me. He was in a position to leave all situations he found himself in. He was not walking a area, he was driving. Just call it in and drive away.
    I know of building contractors that have permits to carry so they carry rifles in racks that can be seen. They think the showing of the rifles is usually enough to protect them in remote areas.
    Hikers that once carried now carry bear and pepper spray instead with possibly one loaded gun for the entire group.

  25. Vicky says:

    LOL Snoopy, I think I would aim for the aforementioned area on general principle.

    Steve and I have never had the desire to carry a concealed weapon, but both of my kids have permits. I have no problem with SYG as long as it is made clear to those who arm themselves that its use as a defense for lethal force is limited, and that they will be prosecuted for any use that falls out of the scope of the intended legislation.

    My son thinks GZ is a coward (polite term for the term he used). It was a sexist term as opposed to a racist one. 🙂

  26. Cali Patti~~it sounds like you live in the Wild West. I always pictured you as a Mae West. lol

    What bothers me about the ‘Concealed Weapons’ is someone with a hot temper and you have just cut them off at a stop sign. When I lived at home my dad and brothers owned rifles, shotguns and twenty-twos. My dad put a load of buckshot in a man’s behind one time. The man was stealing from my dad’s garden and he had been doing it for some time. One night my dad decided to sit and watch his produce… The thief did not dare to call the police but he did have to go to the one doctor in our small town to get the buckshot picked out of his arse. This was before I entered the world.

  27. Vicky~~I just finished reading at the link you provided. A bit of the info sunk in. If they can prove that Zimmerman still pursued Trayvon after the dispatcher told him, “we don’t need you to do that.”, then I cannot see Z gaining immunity on the SYG and his case will go to trial. I am not even sure O’Mara will file a motion for a mini trial but you never know. Anything is possible in the state of Florida as we found out.

  28. Sherry says:

    I understand that with SYG an arrest is not always done-its even discouraged if there is no compelling reason for it. With the Castle Law, if I am getting this right, there is an arrest and then let the grand jury/jury decide. Why can’t there always be a grand jury investigation for all SYG defenses?

    Once again, another expert says there is no SYG defense for GZ. I forget where I read it (darn brain freezes-today I set an all time high record for them!) but O’Mara won’t be using that as a defense? I think he is going to show that GZ and Trayvon was struggling for the gun and it was in self defense. That could play out nicely for the defense even if the state wants to show that GZ was “persuing” him. Self defense is self defense, no?

  29. Sherry~~I cannot figure out all the laws in the US… and I have a hard time with our Canadian ones. I thought if you are standing your ground and kill someone, you are doing it in self-defense.

    This is off-topic and I can delete it later… Do you think Drew Peterson is going to go free now? I read at the link you posted…

  30. Sherry says:

    When the “stand your ground” or “castle doctrine” legislation passed in 2005, the catalytic event that brought the issue to the attention of the Florida Legislature was the looting of property in the aftermath of hurricanes.

    Specifically, there was a situation in the panhandle of Florida where a citizen moved an RV onto his property, to protect the remains of his home from being looted. One evening, a perpetrator broke into the RV and attacked the property owner. The property owner, acting in self-defense in his home, shot and killed the perpetrator.

    It was months before the property owner knew if he would be charged with a crime because of the lack of concrete definition in the statutes regarding self-defense and a perceived duty to retreat by the potential victim.

    Until 2005, the castle doctrine had never been canonized into Florida law, but had been used with differing definition and application to the concept of self-defense. The focus of the law was to provide clear definition to acts of self-defense.

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/21/trayvon-martins-alleged-attacker-not-covered-under-law-wrote/#ixzz1ucXyGNjO

    Okay, I can understand the SYG law for this type of situation. This law def needs to be stated such that no defense lawyer can finagle their client out of charges when they use it for other than emergency conditions such as hurricanes and other disasters that leave people vulnerable on their own property.

  31. Sherry says:

    Snoopy, I have always feared he would go free because of lack of evidence. The investigation was botched from the start. As much as I want to see the man hang (figuratively) from what I know thus far, I could not find him guilty if I were a jury member. Hopefully, the hearsay will help convict him. But I had more confidence Anthony would be fouind guilty than Drew P. Concerning Harry, I think the judge will rule the case can go to trial despite the Attorney-Client breach. I have a feeling his testimony will be scrubbed because of it, though.

  32. Sherry~ ~ the prisons will all be empty soon…

    Well looky here… I wrote about this case on Self-defense or defiance…thus..

    TAMPA — A Tampa Bay-area judge says Florida’s so-called “stand your ground” law doesn’t apply to a teenager charged with attempted murder for shooting his drug dealer after a botched sale.

    The trial went forward and…. Hillsborough is handy to Pinellas County…right?

    Tampa jury acquits man, 18, who admitted shooting his drug dealer

  33. Here is a link to the site O’Mara set up for George Zimmerman… As you will read, O’Mara will be receiving discovery documents on May 14th…

    There is also a response re the ‘Gun Range Targets’ that has been making the news..

    You can read it all …


  34. Rob says:

    Snoopy, Thanks, for providing the information on the various links for this case. I love your intellegent, thoughtful input.

  35. Thanks so much, Rob. Lord knows I try and I have some wondeful contributors in here who make me proud with all their knowledgeable factual input.

  36. cali patti says:

    I’ve also read most of the links and have enjoyed them, Thank you.

  37. Cali~~ you are most welcome, my dear!

  38. We may have to wait a bit longer to see those documents….

    SANFORD, Fla. — George Zimmerman’s attorney said Friday that he is preparing to receive 5,000 pages of critical evidence in the Trayvon Martin shooting investigation.
    Even before that happens sometime by Monday, Mark O’Mara said he will file a motion to delay for at least a week that information being made public.
    The evidence is said to include Martin’s autopsy report and statements from key witnesses. O’Mara said he wants time to make sure the witnesses are protected, and he wants to challenge material he said he believes shouldn’t be made public.
    “I’m going to ask the judge to let us hold it until we have a chance to view all of it,” O’Mara said.
    O’Mara said prosecutors will share the evidence Monday from which they’re building a second-degree murder case against Zimmerman. He will file a motion asking for at least a week to see if some of the material should be thrown out.
    “I want to make sure we minimize anger that has been growing in this case, and it may be in the discovery, and I want to see if it’s appropriate to let it out,” O’Mara said.
    O’Mara also wants to challenge Florida’s Open Records Laws by holding back from the public certain witness names and information for safety reasons.
    Prosecutors and the lawyer for Martin’s family support that move.

    Read more HERE at source

  39. This is an interesting article by…Formerly a reporter for the Tampa Bay Times and Orlando Sentinel, Susan Clary is a freelance writer in Orlando.

    In Trayvon Martin case, why all the fuss over Zimmerman’s defense fund?

  40. Laurali says:

    Happy Mother’s Day All you mommas.

    IF someone did make a target to look like Trayvon the only thing I can say that will not get me in trouble is disgusting!
    I wish the SYG Law applied only to your home and your yard. It just seems like if you give some people an inch they will take a mile. Bottom line is a teenager died because of an adult with a gun. As far as I know none of the 50 States will sentence a minor (under 18) to death for A crime. He committed no crime that night but was sentenced to death. If he did attack Zimmerman imo he attacked him because he was being followed, maybe he was scared. I have not heard that Trayvon had violent tendencies. I do wonder about Zimmerman though, although -no conviction- he has been arrested due to his actions.
    Hi Vicky!

  41. Karen C. says:

    Glad to see this un-freaking-believable Alexander case (in Jax, FL) get mentioned by you, above. I’ve been following this one in quiet amazement given the Zimmerman case. There is precious little justice to be had in Florida these days if this legal monstrosity is not somehow set aside. She killed NO ONE, she wounded no one, she didn’t even hit anything but drywall for pity’s sake. How SYG wouldn’t apply here with a verbal threat of death, etc., I cannot possibly understand- anymore than I can understand the wildly disparate sentences given to abused wives who kill their abusive husbands (and get decades) vs. the abusive husbands who kill their abused wives and get off with manslaughter and a slap on the wrist.

  42. Karen C~~ Angela Corey was really pushing her weight around on this one. I can see getting the three years less the time served. She should not have discharged that firearm in the direction of her children and she was on probation for giving her husband a black eye. I am so glad that I do not live in the state of Florida because their laws are whacko.. Did you see the following video?


  43. Laura~~that target was made by a sicko and it sold out in two days. I used to put a lot of this craziness down to PMS but now wonder if it is all the MSG. Disgusting!

  44. FYI~ ~ Mark O’Mara is now in possession of the first discovery released by the state. I have no idea when we will get to see it as both O’Mara and the state want a lot of it not released to the public. The media lawyers are hot on their tails to get the docs so Judge Lester will have to make the final decision. I do not understand what all the secrecy is about except they feel that holding the docs back is for security. It is sad to think the state of Florida has come to this..

    I copied the following….

    Most names were redacted from the document, but six civilian witnesses were listed: Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin — parents of the alleged victim, Trayvon Martin — as well as Trayvon’s brother, Jahvarius Fulton; Zimmerman’s neighbor, Frank Taaffe; his friend, Joe Oliver; and his father, Robert Zimmerman.

    The document listed 18 Sanford police officers as primary witnesses, including lead Investigator Chris Serino. Corey’s office also turned over five reports prepared by him, as well as written reports prepared by four other Sanford officers.

    According to the documents, prosecutors also have new video evidence from the night of the shooting — both from the 7-Eleven store where Trayvon purchased Skittles and Arizona iced tea, and from the clubhouse of Retreat at Twin Lakes, the apartment complex where the teen was killed.

    Also included in the evidence, according to the new filing, are phone records — Zimmerman’s from Feb. 21 to Feb. 26 and from March 7 to March 22, Trayvon’s from Jan. 1 through March 1, and those of an unnamed witness labeled “W8” from Feb. 26 through April 2. Zimmerman’s medical records and Trayvon’s autopsy report are listed, as are records of Zimmerman’s 2005 arrest and domestic-violence injunctions.

    The list includes 56 audio-recorded statements. One witness, identified as W6, one of the 911 callers, gave four statements to authorities about the shooting, two to Sanford police, one to FDLE and one to the prosecution’s lead trial attorney, Bernie de la Rionda.

    Another witness, W8, gave two statements, one to Benjamin Crump, an attorney for Trayvon’s family, and one to de la Rionda, which suggests W8 may be the girl described by Crump as Trayvon’s girlfriend.

    Read more here….

    George Zimmerman prosecutors file list of witnesses, evidence in Trayvon Martin shooting

  45. The following was posted on the site O’Mara put up re George Zimmerman

    Defense Receives Discovery for George Zimmerman Case

    on 14 May 2012.

    The O’Mara Law Group received discovery regarding the George Zimmerman case just after 5:00 PM on Monday, May 14. The discovery package included 67 compact discs and numerous hardcopy documents, including the State’s Discovery Exhibit and Demand for Reciprocal Discovery. The discovery also includes witness statements, 911 calls, non-emergency calls, photos, video, medical records, and more. Mr. O’Mara and staff will now begin the process of examining the information that has been provided. Please remember and understand that it is inappropriate for us to comment on particular pieces of evidence.


  46. WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said federal prosecutors would have to prove the hate crime to charge Zimmerman, though.

    “What the government would have to prove is that Mr. Zimmerman acted out of hatred toward African-Americans. That’s why he came into contact with him. That’s why he shot and killed him,” Sheaffer said.

    Sheaffer said a federal hate crime murder charge could bring more serious consequences than the second-degree murder charge Zimmerman faces now.

    “Mr. Zimmerman could be punished by up to life in prison or even the death penalty,” said Sheaffer

    Video and article here…

    FBI may charge George Zimmerman with hate crime

  47. Now this is going a bit too far….what is this world coming to? No, make that some people in it…

    Zimmerman’s father: Our lives will never be the same

  48. Sherry says:

    I won’t talk politics but the hate crime charge, trumped up as it is, will stick. You just watch and see. Its not the first this DOJ has done and is doing.

  49. I guess this may have to come into evidence if the FBI files charges against Zimmerman. I wonder if they enhanced the audio of the 911 and are trying to prove Z said f***ing coons.

    So What! New Zimmerman Family Photo Show He Has African-American Heritage (VIDEO)

  50. Sherry~~what does DOJ stand for?

  51. Sherry says:

    I feel for the Zimmerman family as much as i do Trayvon Martin’s family. I really don’t believe that Trayvon’s parents like the hatred going on. They are renouncing it. Sharpton and Jackson need to speak up! But they won’t. I know, I know, I’m pushing it with the political side of things. I’m trying not to. But both parties here in the states love to exploit these kinds of incidences between races. It stinks!

    I may start a new post on it for the political aspect at my blog if anyone wants to tread that path with me… 😯

  52. I think before this case is over, it will trump the Casey Anthony case. I cannot believe half of the things that I have been reading and I thank God that I live in Canada right now. I don’t even post 10% of the alerts that come into my mailbox concerning this case and what is happening all across America.

  53. Sherry~~I have to stay away from political issues in the US because I haven’t a clue about what goes on. I wanted to keep ‘race’ out of it but it looks like the FBI is not going to let that happen. Before this is all over, we may see a lot of blood shed. The tensions and emotions are running so high and they are not letting up. From what I have been reading, it is like a powder keg ready to explode.

  54. Sherry says:

    You know, I was at the Convenience Store the other day and happened to notice a very old sun-faded sign that said, Please pull down your hood on your hoodie to be served. It made me think of Pastor Manning’s You Tube to the black youth about wearing hoodies that was done in ’07, iirc. I believe GZ is guilty of manslauaghter, but is he guilty of racial profiling? Or of profiling someone being up to no good because he saw Trayvon in a hoodie? Or was it Trayvon’s actions that made him suspect in GZ’s thinking? Did GZ mention the hoodie in order to describe the suspicious person or was it to prove that he is right to suspect Trayvon being up to no good? Is that now deleted MySpace a set-up or was it for real? In this case, in this election year, we’d be wise to be discerning of all information coming out that speaks of racial profiling and hate crime.

    Snoopy, I know you don’t want to see this thread go into politics , and I have made a concerted effort to leave it out, but it is hard to do! I’ve revised this comment many times. Please, feel free to delete any of my comment here that has gone into the territory forbidden, ok? No offense will be taken, I promise.

  55. Sherry says:

    DOJ-Department of Justice, run by Eric Holder, who has said that he will not prosecute any New Black Panther members for voter intimidation in ’08. The same thing was done against the KKK 100 years ago. Sorry! Its so hard not to go “there!”

    I know, Snoopy, that it seems to be nothing but race, race, race in this case! And in the U.S., that is political fodder.I kid you not, but earlier today I wondered if there may be room in N.S. for me and hubs. Hubs told me he is thinking about getting a gun and I’d prefer it not despite being pro-NRA. Plus, my health is giving me grief and I think a nice “sit alone” time is needed for me at the cove of N.S. You know the place, you shared a video or two of it and said that you like to spend time there yourself. Well, that’s where I want to be until November 5th, I’ll cast my vote, and be back by the 6th, lol!

  56. Sherry~~ I understand your frustrations and I will give you some leeway re discussing a bit of politics. Since I don’t know all the things that go on in your country, I cannot be of any help but maybe there are others here who will chime in and agree with you. We will see how it goes, okay? Stupid me, I didn’t even know what DOJ was… I thought it was someone’s initials. LOL

    I am getting sick of Zimmerman’s case becoming racial because I do not believe he was a racist from what I have learned about him. Now I will be accused of being a racist for saying that so it is a no win situation.

  57. Zimmerman’s Attorney Threatened, OPD Says

    ORLANDO, Fla. — George Zimmerman’s attorney was threatened in an anonymous phone call Monday, according to Orlando Police Department officers.
    Zimmerman attorney Mark O’Mara received the call, officers said, while waiting for evidence from prosecutors. The call came from a blocked number and an unidentified man made some sort of threat, mentioning Zimmerman by name, but officers did not elaborate further.
    Officers are looking into the threat.


  58. As I sit back and watch the way all this is unfolding, I see Zimmerman becoming a scapegoat to appease!!

    What’s at stake is all the evidence police and prosecutors have compiled against Zimmerman, the 28-year-old Sanford man charged with killing the unarmed 17-year-old in what has become one of the most racially charged criminal cases in the country.


  59. Zimmerman’s parents have now become the prey. What did they do to deserve having to hide in lieu of being killed or maimed by the deranged who want to take the law into their own hands? Who are these people who do not respect the Justice System to handle this case? It goes to show the mentality of those Zimmerman, his family and now his defense attorney have to deal with.

    Why has the innocent until proven guilty flew out the window and what about the citizens of the US having the right to a fair trial?

  60. Here is just a small sampling of why I cannot personally understand what is going on south of us….

    Is there really less racial tension in Canada?


    I live in the states and have heard many times that Canada has more racial harmony than we do here. I have never been to Canada, but my cousin (who is black) goes there every once in awhile to “escape”. He says that your media doesn’t exploit violent crimes commited by minorities like ours does (as well as many other factors), so white people there don’t have a sense of fear or resentment towards black people and other minorities. I’ve been considering moving to Canada for a couple of years and that is one of the main reasons. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin which is considered one of the most racially segregated Metropolitan areas in the United States. I am sick of the tension between race and class not only here but most places in this country. Despite what you’ve heard, we haven’t really progressed that much at all since the Civil Rights era, and since hurricane Katrina and the current focus on the terrible conditions in the inter-city public school systems it isn’t getting much better (to say the least). So is true that racism and tension between race is less prevalent in Canada?

    P.S. Do you guys really not lock your doors?!


  61. Sherry says:

    I agree, Snoopy, about Zimmerman becoming the scapegoat just to appease. I see him sentenced to the full extent of the law, too. Thing is, that’s not justice. I want justice, as you and everyone here does, which is about getting at the truth by definition. I believe that Zimmerman should be found guilty because he did leave his SUV and he did do a number of wrong moves that tragic night. SYG, imo, does not apply. But, now if he is sentenced for the senseless killing, it will be tainted with the attachment of appeasement to it. This trial best not take place this year because it is the fuel to start the race riot fire with.

    I will still try to keep out the politics but its got its slimy tentacles in it ever since Obama spoke on the issue and the left leaning media made (created) it to be an issue.

    BTW, since this is a race issue, I decided to see what our black citizens think about it. Those who spoke intelligently based on the known facts of the case do not believe it should be a race issue. They can be found on You Tube.

  62. cali patti says:

    Lets keep politics and left/right out of here pretty please. Not all of us are in agreement and it could get messy, please!

  63. Newbie says:

    I’ve gone back,forth and sideways on issues involved in this case. Today what is rattling in my brain is the “hippie movement” during the sixties and on. There were many opinions on the youth who were known as the “flower children”, lazy teens, disrespectful and “druggie” youth. Whatever, they were in a classified group. When thinking of GZ and punks getting away (the jest of one of his statements), I wonder if this is somewhat of the nature of the view of the hippies. There are youth who are headed down a dark path as demonstrated in many music videos. There were many who believed any hippie was a wasted youth. It may seem a comparison is silly but time has advanced the fist and knife fights into drive bys and shootings. Are we now seeing the “hoodie” as we did the hippies.

    Well, I don’t think the previous paragraph explains my thinking but…..maybe someone will get the jest of it. Did we follow the hippies if they were in or around our neighborhood?

  64. cali patti says:

    Newbie, if I understand you, you are writing about perception. Perception of a group. If I am correct the difference is the perception of violence with hoodie wearers. Which is off base. Also the hoodie … what is the wearer of hoodie hiding from? Again perception and incorrect.

  65. Newbie~~I think you have hit onto something. I always thought of hippies as a select few who wanted to have a separate identity. I recall that when hippies had a double ring ceremony there were two rings around a bathtub. I just thought of hippies as people who were lazy and didn’t care to bathe. LOL

    We have come a long way since the bobbie socks and saddle shoes or penny loafers. It is fads and the changes of the times. I never identified a hoodie with a black youth before this case. A couple summers ago, my youngest daughter wore a hoodie at a bonfire we were having. That garment kept the mosquitoes and blackflies from feasting on her. I have a pic of her and she looks like an orphan, kinda cute one too holding a marshmellow on a stick. Trayvon will be indentified with a hoodie and skittles and Zimmerman with the Neighborhood Watch and a 9mm gun. Heck, I seldom pick up my roll of duct tape without thinking of Casey or the expression “what a waste, pure waste.”

    I blame the media for helping to make this a racial issue from the getgo. I understand there were a total of three fired from NBC for editting that audio etc.

    Where there is a beginning, there has to be an end…. rascism had a beginning but, unfortunately, I do not see an end in sight.

  66. Sherry says:

    Snoopy, I was going to post this in the Cafe but it fits here, i think:

    Casey Anthony prosecutor wants to revisit public records laws

    I, too, never thought much about the hoodie being associated with blacks or with kids up to no good before this case made the news.

    Newbie, the kids today with their hoodies…I wonder what they will have to endure from the young kids when they get older in 20 years or so? lol… you nailed it, cali patti, when you said its about perception.

  67. Newbie says:

    PERCEPTION ! Thank you Cali.. Reminds me of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Now, I can’t say much about GZ’s assuming there was something wrong with T. Martin in that he might be on drugs or had something in his hand…..

    My kids all wore hoodies and I have grand children that do the same. I even have one grandson who listens to some of the rap while telling me it is a social statement….explains on how things are in some kids’ lives….personally, if I listen to any kind of rap it would have to be Kirk Franklin…..hmmmm…..is he a rappin’ gospel singer?

    I still have not gotten over GZ being able to secure a carry permit. I am also trying to hold my tongue on his being the “cowboy sheriff in town” with the poorest of judgment and/or personal needs.

  68. Newbie says:

    Sherry, lol….great thought on what kids will endure when they get older. Makes me shudder to think of twenty years from now….lol….

    You know PERCEPTION is what explains so much…..it fits all the actions in this case…..from all parties.

  69. FYI~~

    WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.

    The information could support George Zimmerman’s claim that Martin beat him up before Zimmerman shot and killed him.

    The autopsy results come as Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara continues to go over other evidence in the case.


    ABC News said it has obtained Zimmerman’s medical report from the day after the killing. According to ABC, the report shows Zimmerman had a broken nose and abrasions on the back of his head

    Read it all here…

    Autopsy results show Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles

  70. Patti O says:

    IMO, TM could have sustained his injuries and given GZ his injuries while fighting back his attacker. TM is not here to share his side of the story so GZ will get a leg up there. TM would not have hit GZ without provacation if GZ had not been following him in the first place and left it up to the police.

  71. cali patti says:

    Snoopy, that autopsy can also show Trayvon M. was defending himself. I think, whatever either side comes up with, facts will be able to support both sides of this. I also think some people will feel public opinion is against GZ unjustly. The problem with that is GZ should have stayed in his car.
    For me, this has less to do with race and more to do with GZ being a self-rightous bully.
    GZ felt he KNEW what Trayvon was up to, GZ wasn’t going to allow Trayvon to flee and GZ felt he could “take” Trayvon, until he found out he couldn’t.

  72. Patti O and Cali Patti~ ~ we do not know who threw the first punch and can only speculate. I just report the news out there and am keeping a neutral stance with the exception that I do not believe the killing of Trayvon was motivated because Zimmerman was a racist. He may have been an overzealous neighborhood watchman….we just do not know…did he stop chasing after Trayvon when the dispatcher said, “we don’t need you to do that”… it is another unknown… maybe the eye witnesses can shed some light on what really happened… let’s hope we get to read their account of the events soon… I hope all the witnesses are willing to take polygraphs as well…

  73. cali patti says:

    Snoopy, true and I do agree with you. I do not think race had much to do with this either. I am not one of those that thinks 2nd degree murder is appropriate either. I think a lesser charge would have been more in line.

  74. Cali et al… here is some more. Anyone know what those two drugs that Zimmerman was taking were for???

    A medical report compiled by the family physician of accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a “closed fracture” of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation

    The record shows that Zimmerman also suffered bruising in the upper lip and cheek and lower back pain. The two lacerations on the back of his head, one of them nearly an inch long, the other about a quarter-inch long, were first revealed in photos obtained exclusively by ABC News last month.

    In addition to his physical injuries, Zimmerman complained of stress and “occasional nausea when thinking about the violence.” But he was not diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor noted that it was “imperative” that Zimmerman “be seen with [sic] his psychologist for evaluation.”

    According to the report, prior to the shooting Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall and Temazepam, medications that can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings, but in fewer than 10 percent of patients.

    Read the entire article and watch a 7 and one half minute video by Diane Sawyer here….


    psst….in the video, Angela Corey looks like she is reading a script for the lead actress in a movie…does she always sound like sugar and spice?

  75. cali patti says:

    adderall … LOL…that is the new legal speed. It was origimally used by ADHA kids, but in a slightly higher dose makes a great study late drug for students. Much nicer than meth/speed. Many are claimimg ADHA just to get adderall.

  76. Sherry says:

    Mark NeJame left this on his FB Wall:

    For those who missed CNN earlier, it has come out through medical records that Trayvon supposedly had cuts/bruises on his knuckles. George Zimmerman had a broken nose, blackened eyes and cuts on the back of his head. What does this mean? If correct, it suggests mutual combat and that Trayvon Martin was dominating the fight. This doesn’t answer who started the fight or how they came to become physically embroiled. As I’ve been stating from the onset, the evidence, discovery and forensics are critical to establish what happened that terrible night. Trayvon Martin’s team will claim that he was fighting for his life. George Zimmerman’s team will claim this establishes that he was acting in self defense. From all that I have seen and now know, I believe this is an issue less about race in Florida but more over open gun laws in Florida and the coupling with Stand Your Ground laws pushed by the NRA. Additionally, I find it highly suspicious that the original State Attorney, the very experienced and respected Norm Wolfinger, was removed allegedly for a conflict of interest although one has ever been shown or identified. Investigation shows he never even met with the Police Chief until after the indictment. Right before he was to take the case to the Grand Jury he was mysteriously removed. Why did Governor Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi inject themselves and appoint a Special Prosecutor when no real conflict of interest has been announced or discovered and she skipped a Grand Jury and directly charged the case? Very, very suspicious. Mr. Governor, Ms. Attorney General, Ms. Corey…more questions are coming.

    Snoopy will verify.

    I find the italics hard to read when it’s one long paragragh so put it in plain text, yes, that was posted on Mark NeJame’s facebook.

    Here is the link…


  77. Cali~~this is what I found on Medline Plus…
    Adderall …The combination of dextroamphetamine and amphetamine is used as part of a treatment program to control symptoms of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD; more difficulty focusing, controlling actions, and remaining still or quiet than other people who are the same age) in adults and children. Dextroamphetamine and amphetamine tablets are also used to treat narcolepsy (a sleep disorder that causes excessive daytime sleepiness and sudden attacks of sleep). The combination of dextroamphetamine and amphetamine is in a class of medications called central nervous system stimulants. It works by changing the amounts of certain natural substances in the brain.

    Temazepam…Temazepam is used on a short-term basis to treat insomnia (difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep). Temazepam is in a class of medications called benzodiazepines. It works by slowing activity in the brain to allow sleep.

    If I can to make one of my uneducated guesses, I would say Zimmerman was suffering from insomnia.

  78. Laurali says:

    I would like to think the State charged murder 2 because of Trayvon’s age. Not yet an adult. Plus what crime did he really commit walking home from the store? Just because Zimmerman did not know who he was did not really give him the right to call 911. I can see calling if Trayvon were lurking near windows or in people’s yards but Zimmerman never said that.

    As far as I am concerned unless something big comes out in the evidence this should have been manslaughter with jail time. I have a real problem with adults shooting kids dead because they are getting their butts kicked. Even if Trayvon did punch him in the nose. Trayvon did not bring a gun to the fight he brought his fist, Zimmerman better man up if he wants to crime watch. There are bigger tougher criminals on the streets than Trayvon. jmo

    By the way Hello everyone. By the way Adderall is for ADHD and it could also explain Zimmerman’s weight loss. I have been on it for a few months and I have lost about 10 pounds, not much but I am still not 100% so I did not have extra to lose.

  79. Laura~~Zimmerman was on those medications prior to the shooting. His weight loss appeared to be after the incident. One other thing, fists and stiking one’s head on cement can be as deadly as a gun. Zimmerman called the 911 non-emergency line and as a neighborhood watchman had every right to do that. He thought the individual may be up to no good and there had been 14 break-ins in that neighhborhood in the past 12 months.

    I am looking at both sides of this case and in no way am I condoning the death of Trayvon.

    [edit-I do not know how long Z was taking those meds prior to Feb 26th so they may have been a contributor to his weight loss as I would assume he stayed on the drugs after the incident.]

  80. cali patti says:

    Ok, I got the initials wrong but I can verify adderall is the new meds for staying awake. Many students love the drug and it is addicting. Many adults love the drug for the same reasons. It is also great for weight loss.

  81. Newbie says:

    My heart goes out to the parents and relatives of T. Martin. I also feel for GZ for many reasons. Might I damn Florida and their laws tonight? Might I damn all those using this case to promote themselves? Might I damn all circumstances that brought the death of this teenager? Might I damn whatever happened to GZ that he felt the need to get out of his truck with his concealed weapon?
    It all is just sad.

  82. Laurali says:

    Cali- no big deal. If you have adhd it is a wonderful medicine. I am able to focus a lot better taking it. Many women in Hollywood use it for weight loss. I can tell you to this day I still have notes around my house to remind me to eat. I am so focused on life I could go an entire day and never think about food. I try to be healthy so I personally do not like that side effect.

    Snoopy I agree his fist could be deadly, the sidewalk could be deadly. I do not like the way the SYG law is used. I absolutely believe in protecting your property but for a watch captain to walk around and be judge jury and executioner is wrong on so many levels. IMO of course. You do make a good devil’s 🙂 advocate. I never heard mood swings as a side effect with Adderall. Mostly weight loss and at first you feel a little drunk but after the first couple of weeks that is no longer an issue.

  83. Newbie~~well said!! Yes, there are those who are trying to cash in on this tragedy, especially the media. I get notices in my mail alerts about the a**holes trying to make money but I would not give them any free advertising by posting about them on here. So many lives have been shattered and will never be the same regardless of how this turns out in the end. I am sure there is one who would like to be able to turn back the clock because he realizes now that he made a fatal mistake. We will never know what his true mindset was that night. I will join you with the damn, damn, damns.

  84. Sherry says:


    Its an old article but this is what I found interesting:
    Meanwhile, the difference between the typical teenager Martin’s family and supporters say he was and the way he presented himself on social media is the subject of increasing debate.

    As Dan Linehan, a blogger at Wagist.com, pointed out, correspondence with Martin on Twitter before he died alludes to an incident with a bus driver. “Yu ain’t tell me you swung on a bus driver,” Martin’s cousin wrote to him on Feb. 21.

    Martin punched a bus driver shortly before he died?

  85. Sherry~~I read that some time ago but did not dare post it on Dave’s blog due to repercussions. Here is a link to it too….


  86. Vicky says:

    Hi Snoopy, I read that the autopsy report indicated that the shot that killed Trayvon was fired from an intermediate range.
    FYI – i really feel twisted for knowing this bit of trivia, but an intermediate gun shot wound is inflicted by a gun fired less than two feet away, but not in contact with the body. Gun shots from more than two feet will show no soot or stippling. Less than a couple of inches away, and there is not likely to be any soot.
    So, I have a hard time believing that GW was pinned down by Trayvon when he fired the shot. It sounds more likely that both were standing. Of course I could be wrong, but taking into consideration the length of someone’s arm, from elbow to hand, and to shoot someone in the chest, as they are holding you down on your back, banging your head on the ground, physically, the wound would almost have to be a contact wound. I hope that made sense.
    It really seems to me that GW made it to his feet, was royally pissed having just had his butt kicked by a kid, pulled out his gun and shot him. At least this is my opinion given the limited information “released”.

  87. Vicky says:

    Sorry, GZ not GW… Brain fart. It could also be that, or GZ made it to his feet and shot Trayvon in the chest while he on was still on the ground, flat of his back. I imagine the angle of the entrance wound will tell that story. But I still feel strongly that Trayvon was not on top of GZ when the shot was fired. Especially given the type of weapon GZ used.
    Now I need to head to bed.
    As for whether or not Trayvon punched a bus driver. It is obvious that Trayvon was no angel, but it’s a lot easier to play the tough guy in broad daylight with peers looking on, than in the dark with a stranger following you. Trayvon may very well have thrown the first punch, but it was likely a fight or flight situation, and Trayvon chose to fight. That did not give GZ the right to use lethal force to end the fight. The police were on their way, and GZ knew it. At least not from my point of view.

  88. Vicky says:

    One more correction, “more” than two inches away and there will be no soot.
    Soot from a gunshot does not travel more than a few inches. I have tried to give GZ the benefit of the doubt, and I am not convinced this was a racial issue, but I am convinced it was an anger control issue. I believe GZ shot Trayvon in a fit of rage. A moment in time, instantly regretted.
    Now I’m off to bed.

  89. Sherry says:

    Very, true, Vicky, about that not giving GZ the right to shoot Trayvon. I just wanted to share that because some are speculating on George’s mindset, like myself, so what might Trayvon’s mindset be?

    If Trayvon was in fear for his life why didn’t he call 911? He had a cell phone. Plus, he had plenty of time to get “home.” Some said Trayvon may have worried about his soon to be younger brother’s safety. Still there was more than enough time for Trayvon to call 911 if he was in fear of GZ.

    Good grief! I can make points about both the victim and the shooter and still be on the side of justice. I’m no fan of GZ-he screwed up and should pay for it. I just don’t like the sugar coating of Trayvon. If he looked suspicious then he looked suspicious! This will be a consideration in the trial, I’m pretty sure, if there is a trial.

  90. Vicky says:

    Sherry, I think one possible explaination is cultural and social issues when it comes to calling the police. Much to my dismay, some people in our society will not call the police or voluntarily come forward with information regarding a crime. It could be that it never occurred to Trayvon to call the police. For all we know, he could have held the belief system that being a snitch is worse than being afraid. Think about the number of times a crime is committed in front of witnesses, yet nobody calls the police, and if they do, it is done anonymously. And then nobody will tell what they saw because they don’t want to be involved….or fear they will be labeled a snitch.

    I don’t know whether Trayvon was frightened or angry that he was being followed, but either way, when he and GZ were face to face, a confrontation took place. GZ knew the police were on their way prior to that confrontation. Trayvon did not. GZ had a lot less to fear than Trayvon. GZ should have remained on the phone with the dispatcher until the police arrived. Especially given the fact that he was operating under the impression that he was dealing with a possible criminal, up to no good. For all GZ knew, Trayvon could have been armed and dangerous, yet he risked life and limb following Trayvon through the complex. As I see it, GZ was looking for a confrontation and bit off more than he could chew. Perhaps in his mind at the moment he shot Trayvon, he was defending himself, but the fact remains it would have never gone that far had he stayed in his car.

    I also think that once GZ realized what he had done, and continued to operate under the impression that Trayvon didn’t belong in the complex (being as nobody was immediately able to identify him), he began to spin his stand your ground tale. The police also arrived at the wrong conclusion regarding Trayvon’s presence in the apartment complex. With no evidence to the contrary at the time, my guess is that they had no reason to believe GZ was being less than honest. If you ask me, Everything that could have gone wrong that night did.

  91. cali patti says:

    I agree with the remark that “some” people do not consider calling LE right away. Most teens do not want to call LE. And I agree with them most of the time. If I throw a sharpened pencil at you in anger, wether or not I wanted to hit you, that is assult. It is! Most LE will take you in due to liability that can happen to LE for not acting on a call. If they let me go, tell me to go home or ? and a few hours later I shoot you, LE could be held liable. All jurisdictions are different.
    I also agree that it is looking more like GZ got himself whooped and retaliated.

  92. DOCUMENT DUMP FOLKS, I will post the links as soon as I find them…..

  93. http://www.orlandosentinel.com

    The pics are of Zimmerman on left and not sure of one on the right…

  94. Vicky says:

    It doesn’t come as a surprise that there was THC in Trayvon’s system it has already been reported that he was suspended from school for possession. I will say that if he was high, GZ’s behavior probably freaked him out a bit, but he would have been less likely to initiate aggression. The majority of people are pretty laid back when high, but can tend to be a bit paranoid. The above article places the shot at a much closer range. Will have to read the autopsy to get a better picture of just how far away the estimate is.

  95. Sherry says:

    Um, why wasn’t the drugs in Martin’s system mentioned in the affidavit? An affidavit is supposed to have all of the known facts in it, no? Wouldn’t this bit of info make a difference in the charges?

  96. estee1240 says:

    Sherry…sometimes it takes a while to get the toxicology reports on an autopsy….when my sister died in an auto accident it took eight weeks…They discovered medication in her system that was not prescribed to her…no heavy stuff, just antibiotics…We had a friend that worked for a Dr and was always self prescribing stuff for her aches, pains and bellyaches…She would give her samples…

  97. Sherry says:

    True, estee. But then there should have been a wait before drawing up that affidavit stating the charge as 2nd degree murder. I’m listening to a lawyer on the radio who says O’Mara needs to go before the judge and have that charge removed now that this nugget of information is out.

    Vicki, when I smoked the wacky weed I was very paranoid and on edge shortly after smoking it but then I mellowed out after about an hour. That was my experience but it may not have been Trayvon’s.

  98. Sherry says:

    Oh, one more thing, there may be video evidence that makes 2nd degree plausible, but, so far as has been revealed it doesn’t seem right. It looks more like the SA was pressured into going this far with the charge. This puts me on edge because it could lead to a mistrial or a jury finding George innocent due to the charge being too harsh.

  99. Vicky says:

    Ok, I read the autopsy report. I must now concede that the injury to Trayvon was inflicted at very close range as there was both soot and stippling around the wound and on his clothing. The ME statement of intermediate range is a bit misleading. The fatal shot had to come from less than six inches max.
    However, it does not change my opinion that GZ is responsible for the entire situation. I still can’t give him a pass for failing to remain in his vehicle and allowing LE to do their job. I also found it interesting that the only complaining calls made to police by GZ for suspicious persons in the area were African American males. I’m not declaring that GZ is racist, but it certainly appears that he was profiling. I find it hard to believe that during a six month period, the only strangers GZ observed in the neighborhood were black males.

  100. Vicky says:

    LOL Sherry! All I know is I’d much rather be confronted by someone high on weed than someone who is drunk. It really is uncommon for someone who has smoked a joint to become aggressive without any provocation, but I can’t say the same for drunks.
    I’m gonna have to let the few people I know, who still partake from time to time, that a munchie run can be dangerous to your health and wellbeing if the local neighborhood watch volunteer is on patrol. Especially if wearing a hoodie.
    I’m not making light of this tragedy. It just pisses me off that this young man, is dead and the person who killed him refuses to acknowledge that he made a fatal error in judgement. Saying he thought Trayvon was his age does not excuse his actions. According to the ME report, Trayvon weighed only 138 pounds and was only 5′ 9″ tall (if I recall correctly). that information also leads me to believe GZ thought he could take him in physical confrontation.

  101. Vicky~~Trayvon was 71 inches or 5′ 11″ tall… I just scanned and read 183 pages… Is there more out there? I jotted these couple of things down…

    Page 56, Tracy Martin was asked by Christoper Serino , if the voice yelling for help was his son and he anwered “no”. This was not audio recorded.

    Page 147, the 911 audio was enhanced by Forensic Audios at 2 minutes, 20 second, the word following f***ing could not be done due to weak signal level and poor recording quality. Voice comparisons could not be done due to extreme stress and unsuitable audio quality.

  102. This is from WFTV… I watched the short video but haven’t checked it all out yet…


  103. Vicky says:

    Sorry Snoopy, I had a call from my soon to be newest teenager in my life. She had to take priority over GZ. LOL.
    I have still read nothing that convinces me that GZ was justified is shooting Trayvon. I’m sorry, but he placed himself in a “dangerous” situation. He himself stated his target was acting like he was on drugs or something. What kind of fool makes contact with someone they have just told police they believe might be a threat to the community. My answer: A “wanna be” cop who thought he could handle the situation. Well, the fact remains, GW is no cop, and given the fact that we now know he has some form of mental illness,however minor, he probably shouldn’t have been granted a conceal and carry permit.

  104. The three statements GZ gave to police and his video enactment of the shooting will not be included in the document dump, because they are exempt from the public records laws.

    Calls 1-3


    Calls 4-6


    Call 7


  105. Vicky ~ ~I agree that Zimmerman never should have chased after Trayvon especially with a concealed weapon in his waistband. I can see Z getting out of his vehicle to see where Trayvon went but he should have stayed with his truck. I wonder if there were rules and regulations for neighborhood watchman to follow. There is no way that they should carry a gun and I thought they are supposed to call 911 and try to keep an eye on the suspicious person and wait for the police. It is looking bad for Z in the fact that all the calls he made to 911 were in reference to blacks. I am even doubtful now that Z had serious injuries. O’Mara has his work cut out for him ..he may be lucky and get a reduced charge of manslaughter for Z…. I don’t think Mark will even attempt to have a mini trial and ask for the immunity on Stand Your Ground.

    It is strange how just in a few minutes, bad judgement on the part of one can snuff out a life and change so many others. It is a sad situation all around…

  106. Vicky says:

    Before I go to bed, I want to clarify one thing. I stated earlier that I believe GZ may have been profiling when determining who was and who was not a threat to his community. That in and of itself does not mean that I am convinced he is a racist. Many people profile others based upon their appearance. I personally try my best not to profile people, but I have found myself observing someone who is very thin, poorly groomed, and acting shady, and thinking that he/she is probably on crack or meth. For all I know, that person might be on chemo therapy, out running a quick errand, and is acting shady out of fear someone they know might see them looking that way. My point is, it’s never a good idea to assume someone is up to no good, based upon their physical appearance, but it is easy to use past experienced to form stereotypical judgements. I will wait until there is compelling evidence to arrive at the conclusion that GZ is a racist. Even though his history of calls to LE were made solely about black males, if it is true that the suspects in the break-ins were known to be black males, he might have had some justification in profiling while on patrol. But it didn’t give him the right to take the law into his own hands. As stated by one of the detectives in his report, if GZ had stayed in his car, none of this would have happened. I’m not sure 2nd degree murder is the right charge, but I don’t think he should get away with invoking stand your ground or a slap on the wrist either. IMO, he deserves to spend some time in jail for what he did.

  107. Vicky says:

    You are so right Snoopy. So many lives have been forever altered because GZ failed to follow procedures and a simple request made by the dispatcher. I know for a fact that trained Neighborhood Watch volunteers are told not to arm themselves, and not to confront suspicious characters. They are to make observations and call the police with the information.

  108. Laurali says:

    Snoopy I have been following your links and I read somewhere that GZ parked further away then he told le. And now I do not know where I read it 😦 have you read that? I believe the point to him being further away it puts Trayvon closer to his Dad’s house.

    Vicky ITA. I believe jail time should be required, no time served. Murder 2 may be a stretch but I have not gone through all the dna yet.

  109. Laurali says:

    One more question does anyone think the Murder 2 could be the fact that 1 witness said he hollered he is calling 911 and before he got up stairs he heard the gun shot? Also another witness backed him up because she heard him holler and before she made it up stairs/ or right after she made it upstairs she heard the shot? I think le timed it, 60 seconds.

    The reason I ask is because not GZ has called and he knows a neighbor is calling 911 and he shoots anyway?

  110. Laura~~ I did not pay any attention to where Z parked his truck in relation to where Trayvon was shot. I know quite a few people tried to figure it all out. When the police arrived on the scene, Z was standing by T’s remains. The police could probably see where his truck was parked. I am surprised they did not seize his vehicle or maybe they did and I just don’t know about it. I may be wrong but I thought Z and his father went back to the scene the next day and Z tried to do a recreation of what happened. I do not have any idea when Z picked his truck up. His wife went to the police station with a change of clothes for him because the PD took the clothes he was wearing into evidence.

  111. Sherry says:

    On page 15 at this link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor it says GZ’s gun was recovered from the inside of his waistband. WTH? He shot Trayvon dead then sticks the gun back into his waistband? I find that rather disturbing. It appears that a neighbor showed up with a first aid kit, too, as that was some of the evidence that was collected on scene.

  112. Sherry says:

    I think Dave has a post with the map of where the SUV was parked and the trails of both men.

  113. Sherry~~if I just shot a man, I would throw the gun on the ground. That was strange and something you would see John Wayne do in the movies.

  114. Sherry says:

    GZ’s father said that GZ was not on watch that night because that was the night he went shopping. I have seebn a map that showed the SUV parked further back but I wouldn’t be able to find it if my life depended on it. There are a few maps out there but, so far, Dave’s seems to be the one I trust to be accurate.

  115. Laurali says:

    Thank you. The sticking the gun in the waist band did seem odd, but I am not a man. One neighbor said GZ knew where she lived. She apparently was scared to give a statement. A woman calls in an accused him of being racist. This is turning out to be 1 big mess.

  116. Sherry says:

    Laurali, I listened to a tape recording of one of George’s co-workers who was mid-eastern and he said that GZ bullied him and made fun of his accent and made racial jokes. He didn’t want to say GZ was a racist, though.

  117. Sherry says:

    I don’t know why I am all the more saddened that Trayvon’s death occurred shortly after his 17th birthday. Yeah, he was still a child. At 17 is when kids start to “grow up” for the real. 😦

  118. Surveillance video of Trayvon at the 7-Eleven… it is hard to watch knowing he would be dead shortly after… it is so sad.


  119. Sherry~~will you post the links to the audios you listened to. TIA…. now I am off to bed…nitey nite everyone… my eyes are so tired……..

  120. Sherry says:

    Sorry about that! I thought you were the one that shared that link!


    Co-worker described Zimmerman as ‘bully’
    One of the witnesses interviewed by Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda was a former coworker of Zimmerman’s, who said that he had issues with Zimmerman “on multiple occasions.” He described Zimmerman as a bully.

  121. Karen C. says:

    I’m thinking it’s pretty obvious GZ had “issues” with some people. That isn’t criminal; shooting an unarmed person could well be though. So much depends on “reasonable expectation” of possible harm to oneself…

  122. cali patti says:

    Sort of off topic … I stand on the opinion that GZ never should have left his car and GZ never should have never been carrying a weapon.
    Ok, GZ has a permit to carry, but not to shoot because he lost the fight. It does read like Trayvon Martin did win the fight.

    What does bother me is the hundreds of young black men that are killed by other young black men in a few of our larger inner city communities each year. Where are the protesters there?
    Where is the community out cry then?
    Why in our attitudes are these young men treated as throw aways, even by their own communities?
    This is an old problem that has been repeating itself year after year. Yes, it is an overwhelming problem. However if the same civil rights leaders, religious leaders and celebrities gotten together, as they did with TM/GZ case, focused on one area, changed could have happened.
    Just sharing my thoughts…

  123. Laurali says:

    Snoopy it is quicker to reply here, lol. I do not have to sign back in. The dna results from Trayvons’s hands were in your link last night at 7:05. Just wondering why Zimmerman’s blood is not on Trayvon’s hands. No skin from Zimmerman under fingernails. If I read correctly Trayvon’s dna was not found on gun or holster.

    I thought Zimmerman claimed Trayvon fought with him over the gun.

  124. Karen C~~ I think Z will be cooling his heels in prison for this one. If he is not acquitted for manslaughter, at least, there will be be riots like the US hasn’t seen in a long time. It will be interesting to see O’Mara’s next move.

  125. Cali~ ~white on black is a no no… black on black …well I have heard with my own ears blacks calling other blacks the ‘N’ word… Whites do the same and all hell breaks loose.. Crazy isn’t it?

  126. Laura~ ~ Z admitted that he shot Trayvon. This is why we did not get the interviews that Z had with the PD… a lot of info with reference to Z is being held back…or was blacked out. That may have included what was found on Z’s hands. Yes, Zimmerman’s dna should have been on T’s hands but not necessarily vice versa.

  127. Laurali says:

    They included the DNA from GZ clothes. He had Trayvon’s blood on him but from reading about Trayvon’s clothes only 1 blood stained matched GZ which I thought to be weird because of the nose bleed and the head wound. No blood on his cuff.

    That’s the weird part Snoopy, Trayvon’s hands tested positive for his own blood and no foreign dna. My eyes are going to cross so I am done with the dna for now. 🙂 Thanks for all the links you are a doll.

  128. Sheaffer & Belich

    A defendant, under Florida law, loses his “stand your ground” defense if he provoked the encounter — but he retains traditional self-defense if he reasonably believed his life was in danger and his only recourse was to employ deadly force. Thus, if Zimmerman verbally provoked Martin, but Martin then got on top of Zimmerman and banged his head into the ground, broke his nose, bloodied his eyes and persisted in attacking Zimmerman — and if Zimmerman couldn’t protect himself from further attack except by shooting Martin — he would have the right to do that.

    Punched to Death

    How easy is it to kill a man with your bare hands?

  129. Vicky says:

    Sadly, we will never know Trayvon’s side of the story, and GZ is too much of a chicken chit to tell the whole truth about what transpired. I have looked and looked at the timeline, police reports and witness statements, which are somewhat inconsistent. I would expect those inconsistencies since human recall is not perfect. Especially under stressful situations. Anyway, the amount of time that lapsed from when people began hearing the shouting, followed by pleas for help, is really short. As far as I can tell, GZ didn’t put up much of a fight, if any, other that retrieving his gun, and using it to “protect” himself. He treated Trayvon no differently than he had planned to deal with the dogs that had prompted his gun purchase. Actually, he treated him with less respect. He had initially planned to use pepper spray to defend himself from the dogs. Wonder why he chose a gun over pepper spray to deal with the strangers lurking in the neighborhood. I’m sorry, but it really pisses me off to think that we have come to the point in this country where a bully can pick a fight and when his victim gets the upper hand, the bully becomes the victim, and if he happens to be carrying a gun, he is at liberty to shoot and kill the person he provoked to begin with, and use self defense as justification for his actions. What is wrong with this picture?

    One more thing. If Trayvon was repeatedly banging GZ’s head on the ground, how did he manage to hold on tight enough to maintain control over him given the length of GZ ‘s hair,or at the very least leave bruising on the side of his head or on his ears where he was holding on to it? Not only that, but if someone is holding your head in their hands, and your hands are free enough to reach in your holster, that is tucked in your waistband, why not use those hands to pull/push the person off of you? it’s not like GZ was outsized. When I see the photos of GZ’s head, I can’t help but wonder how those types of injuries (abrasions) were caused by having ones head banged on the grass. There was no notation in the police reports that there were rocks in the immediate area where Trayvon’s body was found. I also noted that the paramedic noted the injury was caused by an object (or something to that effect). Could it be that Trayvon wacked GZ with the flashlight that was recovered, as opposed to banging his head on the ground, and that the nose injury occurred during the ground scuffle while Trayvon was wailing the tar out of GZ. One thing I can say for sure. GZ is a wimp. Then again, most bullies are.

  130. Vicky~~I wish we had gotten the interviews that Zimmerman had with the PD to look for inconsistencies. I think there are three of them but O’Mara has held them back. I wonder if we will ever see them since Z admitted he shot Trayvon.

    Did you get a chance to read the autopsy report? Laura said there was no mention of Z’s blood on Trayvon’s hands. I cannot see where this would be possible if T was slugging away at him there would be dna. Did the medical examiner overlook this or did O’Mara have that part redacted?

  131. Vicky says:

    Yes, I read them. I am not surprised at the lack of blood or DNA on Trayvon’s hands. It was raining outside, and when Trayvon was found, he was laying face down with his hands under his body. If by chance there was blood on his hands, it may have wiped off on the wet grass. I honestly don’t believe for one minute that Trayvon hit GZ with his fists that many times. I think GZ is such a wimp that he started crying for help as soon a Trayvon began to nail him. If in fact it was GZ calling for help.
    It seems equally as plausible to me that Trayvon waked GZ on the head and punched him in the nose, then GZ pulled out his gun, Trayvon began calling for help, he then lunged at GZ, they fell to the ground, Trayvon on top, they struggled, Trayvon continued to call for help and GZ pulled the trigger. I really don’t believe Trayvon was pounding GZ’s head on the ground. Those scrapes just don’t seem to fit a soft, wet ground head banging.

  132. Vicky~~thanks. I left a msg for Laura at Dave’s telling her I was asking you for help. I hope she is not offended at me because I thought that part of the autopsy report may be held back. O’Mara seems to be doing things a bit differently than we saw in the CA case. BTW, I understood that Z’s head was being hit against the edge of the pavement (sidewalk) right next to the grassy area.

  133. Vicky says:

    Typo “waked” 🙂
    Dollar to donuts there were several inconsistencies in his story. Not only what he told LE, but in what he told others.
    I wonder if GZ ever went over different fatal encounters in his mind prior to that night. If he did, and he could have used one of his fantasy criminal apprehension scenarios to help bolster his self defense story.
    I was told by a friend, that there are some conceal and carry instructors who coach students on exactly what to say and not to say if they shoot and kill someone, in order to claim self defense.

  134. Vicky~~I was always timid about going to Florida because of the snakes and alligators. I just added concealed weapons to my phobias.

  135. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, if that is the case why didn’t the crime scene people attempt to obtain some type of blood evidence from the pavement? It didn’t look to me like Trayvon’s body was close enough to the sidewalk for that to have been the case. But, I could be wrong. Seems like Trayvon’s head would have ended up on or near the sidewalk, if he was on top of GZ when the shooting occurred. It seems to me that he would have collapsed immediately on top of GZ. GZ then would have slid out from under him, since he apparently lacked the upper body strength to lift him off dung the struggle. So, then wouldn’t Trayvon’s body end up on close to the same place GZ’s was?

  136. Vicky says:

    During the struggle. This iPad is a pain!

  137. Vicky says:

    We have conceal and carry gun laws in Kansas as well. It’s the wild, wild west. LOL
    One interesting side note to our justifiable use of force with a gun. If someone with a c/c comes upon someone harming a child, they can shoot them to stop the abuse.

  138. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, if you look at slide six in the link below, you will see that Trayvon’s body was some distance from the sidewalk. So, it doesn’t appear that GZ’s head could have made contact with the edge of the sidewalk, at least not when Trayvon was shot. perhaps at an earlier location during the altercation?


    I am beginning to think that the initial confrontation began in a separate spot. This is what i think may have happened. They argue (girlfriends statement). Trayvon shoves GZ and he strikes his head on something at that location. Trayvon takes off running. GZ is now really pissed. He quickly regains his composure and runs after him. Being familiar with the neighborhood, GZ cuts Trayvon off. He flashes his gun and begins yelling at/threatening Trayvon. Trayvon yells back (arguing heard by witnesses). GZ looks around to see if anyone is responding. Trayvon sucker punches him in the nose and takes Zimmerman down. Trayvon knows ZG is armed and continues yelling for help while attempting to hold him down. He might even be straddling GZ’s arms. He bangs his head on the ground a couple of times to try and knock him out (witness sees them on ground fighting). Trayvon hears man saying he is calling police and loosens his grip on GZ. GZ manages to get his arms free, unholsters the gun and shoots Trayvon. Police arrive seconds later.

  139. Laurali says:

    LOL You never offend me. I am just confused about the dna and blood. If the ground did wash the blood off his hands it only washed GZ’s blood away. The report said the blood on Trayvon’s hands belonged to him. It also said it did not have Zimmerman’s dna. None of that stuff is redacted or excluded. It had dna from the clothes, gun and holster.

    The report also included what matched GZ’s blood/dna on Trayvon’s clothes. As far as I can tell none of that stuff has been held back.
    I do not think GZ intended to kill Trayvon that night but I think when the neighbor hollered that he was calling 911 I think he shot him then because I believe GZ started it and knew he would be in trouble. He took out the witness. The witness reports (2 of them) said before they made it up stairs they heard the gun shot (and that was right after he told them he was calling). jmo

  140. Laurali says:

    Exhibit ME-2A gave chemical indications for the presense of blood.
    Exhibit ME-2A Right hand
    No DNA results foreign to TBMartin (ME-3) were found on Exhibit ME-2A

    That’s what I am talking about! You found it. It tested positive for blood but it’s not foreign to Trayvon.

    These were the fingernail scrapings~SS..

  141. cali patti says:

    Did I hear a woman on the news say something about us bloggers not commenting on this case? Did anyone else hear this or not?

  142. Sherry~~thanks for the video. So if O’Mara is going to file a motion to have a mini trial before the judge re the immunity on SYG, he will do it in the next couple of months and probably before the hearing on Aug 8th.

  143. Cali~~ I posted a video on Dave’s blog of Angela Corey, the special prosecutor. She said that news medias and bloggers should stop trying the case and wait for the courts to do it. She said all the evidence wasn’t out. She wears some bright lipstick…

  144. Laurali says:

    Sherry ~ Thank you for the link. That is the first time I heard someone mention the blood under the nails, but she did not mention it belonged to Trayvon. I am shocked she talked about him only have a cut on 1 finger. Most the time they say knuckles as in more than 1.

    Maybe it is the mother in me but I do not get why the media keeps saying with the injuries GZ suffered it won’t be hard to prove self defense! What about Trayvon’s injuries? His trump Zimmerman’s bloody nose.

    Snoopy ~ I think I read at ABC News that after George hung up the phone with 911, 90 seconds passed and Trayvon was shot dead. Is that true? I did not look to see if you had a timeline. I guess I can walk back up to the top of the page and find out. 🙂

  145. Laura~~I left some info at Dave’s re the blood and DNA… there was blood detected in one of the fingernail scrapings. It was not Z’s… I did not do a timeline….

  146. Laurali says:

    Snoopy I got it! The other day I asked you about where George parked his truck. Hornsby said he was no where near the location he told the dispatcher he parked at. Trayvon had to take that path to get to his dad’s Martin, did not. This imo makes GZ look guilty of going after Trayvon, not T going after Z.

    I have moved past the blood now. 🙂 Vicky is a wise woman, although I do not think the damp grass washed off G’s blood and left only T’s.

  147. You can listen to the 911 calls that Zimmerman made in the past..scroll down the page for the links to the audios.

    Zimmerman’s past frivolous calls to 911 before shooting Trayvon (audio)

  148. Vicky says:

    One thing keeps nagging at me. Why would GZ freak out over a lone black male walking through the neighborhood at 7:00 in the evening? I doubt very seriously Trayvon was the first person to use the short cut to walk to and from the store. I can see phoning in a report late at night, but it’s a bit over the top to go into Dirty Harry mode during a time when most people are at home and awake.
    If every NHW volunteer called the police each time they saw a black male walking down the street at 7:00, the police would never have time for a donut break. Sorry, but I have really tried to justify GZ’s actions that evening, but there is no excuse. I don’t care if GZ was getting his butt kicked, he had no right to kill that child. If the charges are dismissed and/or a jury acquits GZ of any crime, there is no telling how many people will feel empowered to use deadly force when they pick a fight, and find themselves getting their butts kicked.


  149. Vicky says:

    Hi Laura. I don’t think Trayvon ever had GW’s blood on his hands. Not that I have ever punched someone in the nose before, but I would think the nose would start to bleed after the punch has been thrown. I think rain was falling at the time they were fighting, which might have washed away any trace on his hands before he was shot. If there was any to begin with. As for the blood on his sleeves. If he did make contact with GZ,s nose or head during the struggle, the fabric would have absorbed it. Sadly, Trayvon’s has his own blood on his hands because he most likely grabbed his chest during those few seconds before his heart stopped and he fell forward on them.

  150. Vicky says:

    Also, I never noticed whether or not Trayvon’s pants were tested for the presence of blood. He could have wiped his hands on his pants. I tend to do that when I get something on my hands and don’t have anything else available. I even let the grand kids wipe their hands on my pant legs. LOL.

  151. Karen C. says:

    It occurs to me that if not Trayvon, it would’ve been some other young black kid being taken out by GZ someday- an adult might have responded to being followed in a different way, or been “used” to it- maybe put his hands up right away to indicate they were empty. Trayvon decided to run, which pretty much was a red flag to GZ, who chased him down like a foxhound after its prey. I don’t think TM “circled back” to GZ’s vehicle at all, I think GZ may well have been pulling that one right out of you-know-where, and that most if not all of what he was saying to 911 was designed to legitimize his then and subsequent actions. To make it seemed like he was the threatened one. If the prosecution side is able to prove a good deal of invention on his part something might just stick here. GZ must have a very well-developed internal “life” that has little to do with reality.

  152. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, I just listened to those tapes. Dude ain’t wrapped tight. He certainly takes exception to black male gaining access to the neighborhood through or standing by that back gate. 🙂
    Also, the call about the black male in his neighbor’s yard. What difference did it make that his neighbor was caucasian? Was he implying that white folk wouldnt want black folk in their yard? Would he not have called has the dude been white?
    I have made every effort to leave race out of the equation regardin this case, but i must admit, it is getting more difficult. Me thinks it isn’t going to take much to prove that GZ has a history of demonstrating racial bias.

  153. Vicky says:

    Lord have mercy, way to many typos and grammatical errors. Time for me to go to bed. LOL

  154. Sherry says:

    Oh my gosh~ I was just thinking about something that happened to me and our realtor when my hubs and I were buying our house. We were friends and he was selling a house and the people left behind their cat and dog. The neighbors had the dog picked up by the county but had no idea about the cat in the house. When the realtor saw she was left behind he came and got me to take her in. As we were driving back home he was pulled over by a redneck cop (they all work for the town I live in, I swear!) for going through a toll with no change. That was legit but he and I were grilled like I’ve never experienced-it was scary! I thought the cop was going to arrest him-he cuffed him and put him in the backseat before coming to question me. It was absolutely ridiculous. When Ron was finally let go he told me it was because he was black with a white girl. The cop thought I was a kid until I gave him my ID.

    Another thing, our realtor and his daughter were at our home and one of our neighbor’s thought blacks were moving in so he was gonna move out if that were the case. Our realtor became our life insurance agent and we’d just snicker every time he came to visit. lol That was as close to seeing how blacks are prejudiced against as I ever want to go. (As a child, I had two aunts and an uncle who were black but i was too youung to understand their experiences)

    GZ was playing cops and robbers as an adult and the game became real and now he is facing murder charges. Suspecting every black person in the neighborhood who you don’t know is wrong. It could be they are relationed to someone you do know, like in this case Trayvon was known by a resident and was visiting her.Too bad GZ never experienced what I did…he’d think twice about automatically thinking a black kid was up to no good.

  155. Vicky says:

    Good Morning, I just read the transcript for GW’s 911 call again. Several things occur to me in light of what we have learned along the way.
    First of all, when asked about how old the black male is GW says “About like his late teens”. Didn’t he tell Trayvon’s parents (in court) that he thought Trayvon was his age?
    Next, GW claims he was “on his way to Target” when he spotted Trayvon. I did a bit of google earth sleuthing based upon the number for his address 1959 GW gave the dispatcher before he says he doesn’t want to give his home address. Based upon information he gave out in prior 911 calls, I am fairly certain he lived on Long Oak Way. This made his home on the corner of Long Oak Way and Twin Trees. Right at the end of the row of houses where Trayvon was killed. I mention this because, GW definitely took the long way around to get to the entrance of the complex. Had he taken the much shorter route, I doubt he would have seen Trayvon near or in front of the club house and his claim that Trayvon was walking toward him would make no sense. My point is…GW was patrolling the neighborhood, whether he wants to admit it now or not. It also means he was armed while doing so, which is a NHW no-no.
    He also first tells the dispatcher Trayvon is reaching into his waistband, then that he has something in his hands. To me he was trying to imply that Trayvon might have a weapon. He also seems to think that it is some type of unusual behavior for someone who is being watched and/or followed to stare at the person doing the following. So, in GW’s mind, it was ok for him to stare at Trayvon, but not the other way around. If someone stopped their car to look at me, I might look back or walk toward them to get a better look so I could give a description of the person should it become necessary. It wasn’t until GW was lurking for 2 minutes, that Trayvon decided to run. I can’t say as I blame him, or that I would find that reason to exit my car and run after him. Especially if I thought he Hightower be armed. And I do think GW thought Trayvon had a weapon and was going to use that as his reason for claiming self defense.
    It is also interesting to note that once again that darn back entrance was mentioned. GW told the dispatcher that Trayvon was running for the back entrance. I wonder why he didn’t just drive his happy butt to the back entrance to cut him off. It is just a few blocks away. The way that neighborhood is laid out, there was absolutely no reason for GW to leave his car. He could have driven to observation/exist points much faster than Trayvon could run!
    IMO, GW was bound and determined to apprehend his suspect before the police could arrive. In his twisted mind he had finally found the elusive vandal/burglar and capturing him would make him a neighborhood legend. Headlines in the Retreat at Twin Lakes news letter would read, “Zimmerman saves the day”.

  156. Vicky says:

    Hightower? Darn iPad! “might” be armed.

  157. cali patti says:

    Great explaining Vicky … Good that you read the documents. I enjoy “cases” that are a puzzle. This one is becoming less interesting as time passes. We may never know exactlt what occured that night nor exactly what the one manone teen boy involved were thinking. We do know GZ followed ans somewhat stalked TM. TM ran from GZ and was again confronted. I do not care if TM threw the first punch. I do not care if GZ has a broken nose or a cut on his head. GZ never should have pursued an innocent teen boy. Period!
    People talk intent. Intent here is clear. TM wanted to talk to his girlfriend on the phone in privacy. Walking to a store gave him that privacy. GZ was looking for evil doers. GZ thought he found what he was looking for in TM. Well, intent here looks bad for GZ.

  158. cali patti says:

    can I blame your ipad for my oops’s? man/boy, plus

  159. Sherry~~when I hear tell of police hauling over blacks just because of the color of their skin, it makes my blood boil. When I spent most of the summers outside in the garden, I got really dark and my hair was the next thing to black. A black man who was a close friend of ours, he is deceased now, used to jokingly say I looked like his sister. We have black men married to white girls here and no one seems to care. I just don’t understand what all the fuss is about. I guess it dates back to the deep south and there are those who just want to live in the past. I first learned about racism in books and from watching movies so it goes to show how backwoods I am.

  160. Ladies, don’t worry about a few typos… the typo fairy has been multi tasking and it is time consuming to go inside the comments to find a particular misspelled or whatever. We all make a few and the essense of the comments still comes through so no harm done.

  161. Vicky~~I have never taken the time to figure out what exaclty happened, timewise, location wise etc on the night of Feb 26th. If I was more familar with the area where it happened, it would be easier than to try and rely on maps. I have read oodles of comments where people have tried to figure it all out but they have more patience than me. I get confused when it comes to times and distances and we still don’t know who ran where and who chased whom. I commend anyone who has made an effort to try and put the pieces together.

    I am still confused why O’Mara let Zimmerman take the stand under oath and make that apology to Trayvon’s parents. It was definitely inappropriate as generally an apology is reserved for the penalty phase of a trial. Once I heard Z mention that he didn’t know T was a teenager, I thought whoops…. there are ways O’Mara could get around that had the prosecution crossed Z on that faux pas…I am surprise De La Rionda didn’t pick up on that as he would have been allowed to question Z on the issue of age but then again, the 911 call had not been introduced at the bond hearing so maybe DLRionda was not allowed to ask about it. One of these days, hopefully I will have all the court procedures figured out but that is just wishful thinking.

  162. I left this comment at Dave’s for Linda but thought I would repeat it here for those who want to know where I stand on this case… I will probably change my mind a dozen times before this is over…

    LindaNewYork~~good to see you, my friend and I am glad to know you still read here and at my sandbox. I am with you when it comes to sitting on the fence about certain issues that have taken place because I just do not know what Zimmerman’s mindset was on that fatal evening and prior to that. Judging by listening to some of his calls to 911, he displays a bit of paranoia and yet seemed to be wanting to protect his neighborhood. He certainly did not follow the guidelines of a Neighborhood Watchman that nite. For this I have to fault him.

    I started out by thinking Z was not a racist but I am beginning to chance my mind after learning more evidence but still am not a hundred percent sure. That evening Trayvon represented to Z a hoodlum up to no good and I will put this down to the age of T and he was wearing a hoodie and considered a stranger in that gated community. Yes, he was profiled because of other break ins that had occured. So we have an innocent young black teen who had every right to be a visitor at his father’s fiancée home and walk to the 7 Eleven to make a couple of purchases. Then you throw in a NW captain who took it upon himself to try and make a citizen’s arrest because the youth just looked suspicious. Police on patrol don’t even do that as they are trained to have more common sense.

    Zimmerman did not realize that he may be faced with an altercation by T who had every right to stand his ground when he was being stalked. Who made the first physical contact is unknown. Z was viewed by one of the witnesses leaning over T and putting his hand on his back after T was shot and lying face forward on the grassy area. Was Z trying to pat him down looking for a weapon? Another unknown. T had a tin of iced tea inside his jacket which had to be removed when CPR was performed on him by police followed up by the medics. Did Z think it was a weapon because he told the dispatcher, “he is reaching into his waistband.”

    To summarize we have an innocent young black youth, and over zealous nieghborhood watchman, a stand your ground law combined with a concealed weapon and when you throw in racial discrimation, it is not a pretty sight and makes for one hell of a bad situation. What the outcome will be is anyone’s guess and regardless, we will not see the end of this for years to come. That is just my take on this whole fiasco that happened in a blink of the eye and was avoidable.

  163. Here discussing the evidence we have had access to and why some has been or is being redacted..

    O’Mara talks to Tony Pipitone-short video and write up

  164. Vicky says:

    Before I head to bed, I have one more question for us to ponder. I have seen photos of the bullet casing, but not in relation to where Trayvon’s body was found. I am in no way an expert in firing weapons, but it would stand to reason that the location of that bullet might tell investigators where GZ and Trayvon were when the shot was fired. And whether or not Trayvon was on top of GZ pounding his head on the ground or if they were both standing. I would imagine that is something that has been carefully examined by the fire arms experts.

  165. Vicky~~I think you are on to something…look at the distance from the sidewalk and where Trayvon’s body (covered with yellow tarp)…is located…

  166. Karen C. says:

    Looks like TM’s head was a good 3-4 feet away from the edge of the walkway….

  167. Vicky says:

    Snoopy.When the kel-tec pf-9 is fired, the spent bullet casing comes out slightly up and then to the right. If GZ’s version of the shooting is true, then they were both on the ground with their heads facing toward the sidewalk. The barrel of the gun was pointing toward the sky (up). So the spent casing would have landed to the right, but closer to the sidewalk than the buildings, unless their bodies stopped it’s path and then it would be right by Trayvon’s body. If they were standing, then Trayvon would most likely have been facing the sidewalk and when the gun was fired the casing would have landed further away from the sidewalk and more toward the middle of the yard. In other words, if they found the casing where the body was or in the grass near the sidewalk, then GZ might be telling the truth about being on the ground when he fired. Otherwise, it is more likely they were standing at the time, which means he shot and killed Trayvon when he could have backed away, since the threat of serious harm had passed. Since Trayvon’s prints are not on the gun and there was no powder residue on his hands or sleeves, GZ can’t claim they were struggling for the gun when it went off. Of course, I could be full of crap, since I am not a fire arms/forensics expert. 🙂

    I still think GZ’s version seems unlikely, since Trayvon’s body is some distance from the sidewalk. And the story the GZ managed to scoot their bodies that distance away from the sidewalk, while having his head banged on the ground, is hard to believe. Ifhe had that much strength, one would think he could have rolled Trayvon off of himself while scooting.

    Off to work now. Catch you later.

  168. Laurali says:

    I found a statement regarding the casing:
    After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge I got the medical detector and began to scan the area the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area, and instructed CST Smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me that she found casing just inches from where I placed the marker. CST Smith documented and recovered a 9mm Luger S&B cartridge case. We retrieved our equipment and returned to the Sanford Police Department.

    So my gun experts what does that mean? :/

  169. Laurali says:

    Trayvon’s DNA is excluded from the grip of the gun -on page 105 of the report. DMS21D HOLSTER for gun the DNA profile for the minor could not be determined. Looking at the numbers by race break down IMO the mix of the other 2- it possibly could belong to I would say it would be a Caucasians(1 IN 11 quadrillion) person or a Southeastern Hispanic(1 in 57 quadrillion) before it would be that of an African American(1 in 1.5 quintillion).

  170. Laurali says:

    Sorry one more thing then I will leave you alone:page 124/183 Zimmerman’s jacket was chemically tested for the presence of gun shot residue. Chemical testing indicated one particle of lead on the upper back portion of the right sleeve of the jacket. No other residue is found on the shirt or jacket.

    So my question is if Trayvon is on top of Zimmerman well then obviously Zimmerman will not be able to extend his arm all the way out (imo) so how does a particle of lead end up on the upper back portion of the right sleeve? And I am assuming they consider the upper sleeve basically the upper arm. Lower sleeve imo would be considered elbow to wrist?

  171. Vicky says:

    I saw that Sherry, but when you google earth the house number he gave the dispatcher, it shows up at the other side, closer to the back entrance, which wold make more sense as to how GZ and his wife were observing the two mention they called in about on an earlier date.
    I suppose the NY Times might have a better inside source, since I have none. 🙂

  172. Vicky says:

    Laura, I have seen a picture of the casing, but not in a long shot with the marker, showing where the casing was. I agree with Karen C. To me it appears that Trayvon’s head was a good three feet from the sidewalk, if his body was indeed lying in that direction. That being said, he would have been yet another several feet closer to the house if he was standing when GZ shot him. I think that the prosecutor is of the opinion that Trayvon was standing when shot, which means GZ has lied about what happened.
    I think once GZ realized what he had done, and that Trayvon was armed with nothing but tea and Skittles, guilt took over and he began attempting to rationalize a completely irrational act. Not only to himself, but anyone who would listen.

  173. Vicky says:

    Snoopy here is yet another photo of the crime scene from a different angle. Clearly, Trayvon was nowhere near the sidewalk when shot.


  174. Laurali says:

    Vicky~ that photo reminded me of something. When Trayvon left the 7-11 I thought the clerk gave him a bag for the tea. Could he have hit Zimmerman in the nose by swinging bag? Maybe Z grabbed him and he swung it? In the evidence photos the tea is no longer in a bag. Police found it in hoodie pocket but it came out or they removed during cpr. Bag tore Trayvon picks it up and tries to run again… I don’t know do you have any thoughts? 🙂

  175. Evidence photos released in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin -65 pictures

    The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.

    Video showing teen encouraging others to fight was not Trayvon Martin, brother says

  176. I swiped the following from Dave’s……

    The Orlando Sentinel published a precise timeline of events leading up to Trayvon Martin’s death. Released with the document dump last week, it shows what George Zimmerman doing just prior to the shooting. In less than two minutes from the time Zimmerman ended his call with the dispatcher, Trayvon was shot dead.

    1911:12 – Call received from George Zimmerman reporting suspicious person

    1913:19 – Zimmerman relays that suspicious person is running from him

    1913:36 – Dispatcher asks Zimmerman if he is following suspicious person

    1913:36 – Dispatcher advises Zimmerman “Okay; we don’t need you to do that”

    1915:23 – Approximate time call with Zimmerman ends

    1916:43 – 911 call placed by (blacked out name) where Zimmerman is heard screaming for help

    1917:20 – Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease

    1917:40 – Officer T. Smith arrives on scene

    1919:43 – Officer T. Smith locates and places Zimmerman in custody.

  177. Judging by that timeline and only 2 minutes between when Z ended his call with the dispatcher and T was shot… my guess would be that Z was returning to his truck and T jumped him.

  178. Laurali says:

    Snoopy at first that is what I thought may have happened but after listening to the 911 call and the dispatcher asking Z where the police should meet him, instead of giving him a location he asked they call him. Why? If he were sitting in his truck by the mail boxes why would the police need to call to get his location? JMO

  179. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, Yes only 2 minutes passed once he hung up, but once he exited his vehicle (less than 2 minutes into the call) GZ was on the move the entire time, so there is about 4 minutes of time during which GZ is pursuing TM. during that time, TM was on the phone with the girl. She reports that TM was moving away from GZ, not planning to confront him. During the 2 minutes, GZ is no longer in contact with LE, she hears TM ask why he is being followed, GW responds asking why he is there. Then phone goes dead.
    Here’s the deal. GZ knew that neighborhood like the back of his hand, and nobody will convince me otherwise. IMO, So the lame excuse that GZ was looking for a house number, would not have placed him in the back yards, between two rows of townhouses. Therefore, I don’t believe that TM jumped GZ from behind. To me, the confrontation took place when TM looked back over his shoulder, and saw GZ rounding the corner behind him. If GZ wasn’t planning to escalate the situation, why didn’t he just answer Travon’s question, that he was with the NHW? He wouldn’t have taken his gun with him, had he not been prepared to use it. Also, he himself stated Trayvon was running away.
    By the way Laura, sometimes if a gun is fired with direct contact, the next bullet will fail to move into the chamber. And it doesn’t sound to me like TM tried to grab the gun. I think if that were the case, the wound would have been lower had the gun discharged during that type of struggle. I actually think that once the less than 2 minute ground battle was over, probably when the guy yelled at them, they got to their feet, GZ pulled the gun on TM to keep him there, then TM made the tragic mistake of moving toward GZ, maybe even yelling at him and that is when GZ fired the gun.

  180. Laurali says:

    Vicky in your past life did you write crime novels or maybe police detective. I agree with how you think. Don’t know if it’s great minds or twisted minds! 🙂

  181. Vicky says:

    Laura, I vote twisted. 🙂
    Here is another photo of the crime scene.

    It seems obvious to me that there is no way TM was shot while banging GZ’s head on the concrete. The police officers in the shot give even more perspective as to how far he was from the sidewalk.

  182. Vicky says:

    I also find it interesting that the crime scene tape wraps around to the side of the building. I wonder if there was additional evidence found there or if someone saw/ heard something occur there.

  183. Laurali says:

    Vicky what you said about them both getting up makes me think about Zimmerman saying Trayvon’s last words were it’s over or you got me. IRRC I read both, so apparently Z is undecided what he said, makes me wonder though.

    I think I would have slept better had I not clicked on that photo you just posted. I noticed the crime scene tape in the earlier photos.

  184. Vicky ~~I am not 100% sure about the girlfriend’s recollections. The time when her call to Trayvon got disconnected is important if they compare the time to the first 911 calls. Crump, Martin’s attorney interviewed the girlfriend before De La Rionda interviewed her??? I thought someone said it was around three weeks before someone got a hold of her. I could be wrong on that but I know it was a while after the shooting.

  185. Vicky says:

    Laura, I have no idea when TM would have made that statement, but it most certainly would not have been after he was shot. He sustained a catastrophic injury that would have killed him within seconds. His heart stopped before he even had time to “bleed out”. I would venture grabbing his chest was the last thing he ever did and it was probable a reflex.

    I saw the crime scene tape on the other side in another photo, so I think LE blocked off all areas where there were potential witnesses.

    I really don’t care at this point whether GZ was scared or not. He was the instigator of this confrontation and shouldn’t be able to claim self defense. He may not agree, but his life is no more important that Travon’s. If he was so damn concerned about his safety and well-being, he should have stayed in the car where he was protected from any harm. He should have never put another person the position of giving him an excuse to “stand his ground”. In my opinion, that is exactly what he did, and I don’t believe that is the intent of the law.

  186. Vicky says:

    I know the girls statement was delayed, but I am not surprised. Like I said in an earlier comment, depending on this girl’s background, she might have been fearful of becoming involved and/or talking to the law. I would imagine that Crump had to do a lot of reassuring to convince her to come forward. She might have thought Trayvon had done something wrong based upon initial reports and didn’t want to be put in a position to testify. After all, when the initial investigation was complete, it was said to have been self defense. How would she have actually known any different. Or, she could have thought there was a cover-up, and was afraid she would be in danger if she spoke out.

  187. Vicky says:

    Also, the girl’s statement seems to confirm one of the stories being told by GZ’s family, that GZ and TM exchanged words. That certainly didn’t occur while he was on the phone with the dispatcher.

  188. Vicky~~ I listened to the unedited 911 call again….it seems Z was still running after the dispatcher told him not to… I go by the sound of wind blowing against the cell… it sure sounds like gun clicks in a couple of different spots.. the sound of wind stopped so I assume he was walking. Did he haul that gun out and go after Trayvon? We need more documents…

  189. Sherry says:

    Was that the wind, or his breath, that stopped. If he was in training to be a police officer he would be in good shape, but if not, he may have been huffing and puffing after his run, if he ran.

    According to GZ, when he was knocked to the ground the gun was exposed to Trayvon.

  190. Sherry says:


    What Zimmerman told his father:

    Robert Zimmerman, George’s father, said that George was walking back to his truck when Trayvon appeared from behind. Trayvon punched George in the nose and slammed his head into the sidewalk, he said. When George tried to move away from the pavement onto the grass, the gun inside his waistband became visible. Mr. Zimmerman said that George believes Trayvon saw the pistol and said, “You are going to die tonight.” Moments later, George pulled out his pistol and shot Trayvon in the chest.

    What Zimmerman told police:

    In an account given to the Sanford police, George Zimmerman said that he lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his S.U.V. when the teen approached him from behind and asked him if he had a problem. Mr. Zimmerman said the two exchanged words before Trayvon punched him to the ground, then repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk in the moments leading up the shooting. When police arrived on the scene, he told officers that he had cried out for help but no one had come to help.

    Okay, GZ told his father that TM saw the gun and was going to kill him so the struggle ensued. Did he tell the officers this-at the scene? To me, that would be the only way to believe that scenario. If something like that happens you just don’t wait to tell the officer about it.

  191. Sherry says:

    She also said that she heard what sounded like an earpiece to Trayvon’s cellphone falling away before the line went dead.

    I wonder what this sounds like? I think it would be an awfully sensitive earpiece to pick up such a muffled sound, granting that the sound would be audible.

  192. Laurali says:

    Sherry on page 17/183 an officer noted the headphones were on the ground close to Trayvon’s body. It makes me wonder if they were in that general area for the entire fight. If that is the case then I need to know if the headphones were close to the sidewalk. So many questions.

    As far as the gun and Trayvon is concerned I do not believe a word they say about him going for the gun. The evidence does not support it, imo.

  193. Karen C. says:

    Sherry- At this point various scenarios have been put forward by GZ and/or his surrogates, which fact doesn’t help him any. It certainly seems that he’s added/subtracted as he’s seen fit. Thanks for placing two of these together for comparison. Ultimately though I just don’t believe the guy- he’s got every reason to confabulate given the nature of this offense- moo. He’ll be hit with all this HARD on any cross….

  194. Laurali says:

    Also on page 20/183 the gun fully loaded holds 8 bullets 7 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber. When they took control of the gun it had in the magazine and 1 in the chamber, so I do not think it jammed or whatever from being grabbed. Again jmo!! 🙂

  195. Sherry says:

    The only possible evidence would be if the wound on Trayvon’s finger would be from it jamming the gun after the chamber bullet fired. I tend to think it may be a graze wound from the bullet that entered his chest. Trayvon may have whipped off those phones for the fight and they landed there.

    Did Trayvon retreat when shot? I know we don’t know, but I have felt Trayvon was shot as he was trying to retreat from GZ after confronting him, fight or no fight. How did the bullet enter the chest? Sideways or straight in?

    In the last link I posted there is a map showing where GZ lived. If he was on his way to the store then he would havehad to back track, turning right instead of left at the entrance, to watch where Trayvon was going. Then he had to pull up a good ways on the street to where he parked his vehicle. To me, it shows GZ was intent on following TM. Add having the gun on him that shows intent on using it.

  196. Sherry says:

    Okay, its my understanding that the only bullet fired was the one in the chamber. But, something kept the bullet from the magazine from loading into the chamber for the next firing.


    The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged.

    Now, I know that’s an old article but it was posted by a commentor at RC after the document dump. OK, no DNA on the gun but does that rule out TM grabbing the gun? Most likely but there’s still a possibility that O’Mara may find an expert on it saying it doesn’t rule out the struggle.

  197. Laurali says:

    Sherry I do not know who is saying that -but -this is what the report from 3/05/12 says about the gun:
    On 03/05/12 I was asked to check the round count for the recovered firearm. I examined the crime scene photos and cafe report and determined:
    recovered at the scene were
    KEL TEC PF-9
    6 live rounds in the magazine
    1 loose live round when cleared that HAD been in the chamber
    1 spent casing
    Kel Tec PF 9 round count
    All rounds are accounted for if the firearm was fully loaded at the time of the shooting. Fully loaded Kel Tec PF-9 is 7+1 , seven rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber.

    Page 20/183

  198. Laurali says:

    May 21 10:32 p.m. Snoopy left a link with evidence photos.

    The picture of Zimmerman taken in the police car of his nose looks nothing like the photo taken of his nose at the police station. I do not know how much time lapsed but something does not seem right. jmo

  199. Karen C. says:

    Unless ice was applied, and it really, really worked! The grainy pic looks nothing like him. Heck, it looks like some sort of pointillist illustration. When I first saw it I thought it may be of some older male witness, maybe… it does indicate a very broken nose.

  200. Vicky says:

    We have to remember that cell phones take lousy photos in the dark. So, I’m not surprised that photo looks so odd. As for the blood shown in the police photos, it takes a bit of scrubbing to wash off blood that has begun to dry. The paramedic was only concerned with cleaning the immediate area of the wound to assess it.

    I am making an effort to look at the evening from GZs point of view, without benefit of concrete evidence.
    I am wondering how long GZ observed TM before calling the police? Did GZ see TM enter the community or did he first see him as he waited by the club house for the rain to subside? I think this makes a difference when it comes to GZ claiming TM was acting suspicious. Did he observe TM talking on the phone and think he was conversing with himself? Perhaps TM was animated while talking. I know I tend to talk with my hands. that might be viewed by some people as some psycho if they didn’t stop to think “hands-free” communication.

    One of the witnesses mentioned that just a short time before the incident, there had been kids outside playing in the rain. So by the sound of that statement, the neighborhood was still fairly active right up to the point GZ spotted Trayvon. It makes no sense to me that GZ would think someone was up to no good, but then again, I don’t know what time of day or night the previous crimes occurred in the neighborhood. Perhaps Sunday evening was a prime time for illegal activity. That is after all a time when many people attend church activities.

    Well, that about takes care of my trying to get into GZs head that night for now. The rest seems like the actions of an extremely impulsive individual, with an underdeveloped prefrontal lobe. so, I am going to need to continue thinking about what may have happened next. I will skip to the confrontation.

    I wonder if Trayvon told GZ he was there visiting his dad’s girlfriend, and when asked for the address, was unable to remember it, so GZ assumed he was lying about his right to be there, and then tired to keep him from walking away. Seventeen year old males can demonstrate a bit of attitude when being unfairly accused of wrong doing. He probably said f-you man and started to walk away. GZ might have grabbed his arm, and then Trayvon swing around and smacked him in the back of his head with the bag of tea/skittles. The contents fell out of the bag, TM picked them up, put them in his pocket. GZ then began to unholster his gun, TM saw him going for his gun, jumped him and both fell to the ground. TM got the upper hand and was able to pin GZ down. When the witness said he was calling the police, Trayvon way have assumed the threat was over and let go of GZ. Then GZ shot him, perhaps not realizing TM was done fighting. This is of course total speculation, but since Trayvon wasn’t afforded to give his side of the story, we should be able to come up with as many versions as George and his friends/family. 🙂

  201. Laurali says:

    Vicky ~very sweet of you to speak for Trayvon. Only 1 thing, the skittles never made it back into his pocket. They were found near him on the ground. To bad he did not swing the bag (if he did at all) to knock Z out. Then the police could have sorted out the whole mess and T would be alive. jmo
    I thought a video from the clubhouse was supposed to be released also. Does it show T hanging out waiting for the rain to pass or does it show Z lurking in the background in his truck? Has anyone else heard about the clubhouse tape?

  202. Newbie says:

    Laurali, I thought the clubhouse tape was being held…not released yet.

  203. I got so engrossed at Daves, I forgot that I live here. You are all doing a fine job… carry on. You can always come visit me at Dave’s to see the trouble I can get into there too…

  204. Laurali says:

    Snoopy LOL! Talk about vicious!

    Newbie~ Maybe it did get held back but I thought it was being released. I want to see it, I want to know what it shows. I guess I will have to wait. Vicky will fill me in, or she will tell me what I want to hear. She is a good story teller. 🙂

  205. Vicky says:

    While surfing the Internet, I stumbled upon this article (based in sound reasoning) in Psychology Today. I think is does a great job of summing an inherent flaw in stand your ground laws. I completely agree with Dr. Banschick. I think it also gives us a glimpse into why there is so much debate over this case. It’s all about perception. I hope everyone here will take time to read this.


  206. Newbie says:

    Vicky, that is an excellent article !

  207. Vicky says:

    Yes it is Newbie.
    For those who might not take the time to read it, here is a quote from the article I referenced above.
    “Imminent danger is in the eyes of the beholder. The problem arises, as we have seen, when individuals are asked to determine whether or not something was justifiable. A stimulus – like a young person of color in a hoodie – can lead a few to be “reasonably” fearful (in their own minds). To most people this same person is simply a young man in a hoodie – and no more.  One’s sense of safety  is relative. Some may feel threatened by the mere presence of another human being, late at night, while, others will not be threatened unless they are actively being assaulted.” 

  208. ORLANDO, Fla. — Evidence released last week in the second-degree-murder case against George Zimmerman shows four key witnesses made major changes in what they say they saw and heard the night he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla.

    Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman. A fourth abandoned her initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single figure running.

    Read more here…

    4 witnesses in Trayvon Martin case changed their stories

  209. Karen C. says:

    I just linked to this over at Dave’s- great minds and all!

  210. Laurali says:

    Vicky~ Thank you for the link. Very interesting. When I read your 2nd comment with just the paragraph at first I thought he was implying Trayvon had been out late at night. 7 is not late. I realized it was a general statement.

  211. Vicky says:

    Hi Laura, I thought the article summed up the situation we have found orrselves in with SYG laws quite well. I really don’t like the expansion of the castle laws. This is not the first or last time the SYG law will be incorrectly applied, if it is allowed. in my opinion, if we are going to continue down this road as a society, there needs to be very concrete and limited parameters where SYG can be used as a defense.

  212. Laurali says:

    I always assumed SYG protected you in your home or on your property, but if this defense is allowed then I guess you can let your mouth overload your azz and when all else false shoot the person dead. Makes no sense. I especially take issue with it allowing adults to shoot children.

  213. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, my comments keep going poof at Dave’s.
    In answer to your question. The Feds are not precluded from going after GZ for violating Trayvon’s civil rights or for a hate crime if they find sufficient evidence because of the SYG laws.

  214. Thanks, Vicky….dang laws, I will never get them figured out.

  215. Vicky says:

    Laura, SYG is a stupid and irresponsible law, in my opinion.
    It makes my skin crawl to think about the mixed emotions Trayvon must have experienced that night. First of all, my understanding is that there is a history of conflict between the African American and Latin communities in Miami. So, subconsciously, his anxiety level was probably elevated to begin with once he got his first glance of GZ (if he actually looked at GZ). Then once he realized dude was actually following him, a mixture of fear and 17 year old testosterone probably kicked in. Adrenaline was pumping big time. Then the expected male macho, I’m not afraid self talk came into play, mixed with the oh chit, dude is still following me reality. All those emotions led to a F-him, he ain’t goona punk me attitude (with justification) when they came face to face. When he let that adrenaline take over, GZ was on the receiving end of a the good old fashion ass kicking he deserved. Sadly, Mr. Poster boy for Stand Your Ground was nothing more than a gun toating coward and the end result was a needless loss of life. How anyone could possibly expect an adolescent not to go into self defense mode as a response to the situation GZ placed him in is beyond my comprehension.

  216. Vicky says:

    LOL Snoopy, our laws are quite something when it comes to state versus federal law. State laws for the most part trump federal law, as long as they don’t violate the constitution, but that just means that the Feds can’t force states to prosecute a case in an instance like this. If someone violates a Federal Law, the Feds are at liberty to charge a crime.
    Another example, Several states passed medicinal use of Marijuana laws, but if they chose to, the DEA could enforce federal laws. So far that hasn’t occurred, but it is within their power. At least they think it is, but haven’t been willing to have that theory tested at this juncture.

  217. Karen C. says:

    Vicky- Thank You! You stated quite perfectly above the scenario as I’ve been imagining it too.

  218. Vicky~~we have federal laws in all our provinces which make up Canada. I am not sure about La Belle Province of Quebec, they have separate everything. It is confusing that all the States in the US have their own separate laws. Our death penalty is for all provinces. You can see why I get confused about the US.

  219. Vicky says:

    Karen C – my grandson is not thet much younger than Trayvon and my son is not that much older. So, I get to observe both age progressions at the same time. Fortunately, my son, who also happens to have a conceal carry, shares my opinion of GZ. I’d be totally mortified if he didn’t. I can’t imagine some idiot with ac&c profiling my grandson as a thug when he walks home in the evening, based on his desire to wear hoodies and baggy pants. I’m forever offering to tighten his belt. LOL
    I mention having two males around the same age as TM & GZ, because, at this point in his development, the amount of testosterone flowing through my grandson’s veins and the leveled out amounts present in my son’s has finally enabled the younger to turn the tables on the older when they are wrestling around. Adolescent males have amazing strength, so I can see how Trayvon was able to get the better of poster boy. unfortunately, GZ suffers from retarded emotional development and should never have been given the option of possessing a conceal and carry.

  220. Vicky says:

    Add my son is not that much older than GZ.

  221. Vicky says:

    I completely understand Snoopy. I live on a state line and have to be conscious of the differences in laws every time I cross the river into Missouri. Then there is the fort that has yet another set of laws when I go there.

  222. Vicky says:

    Not to mention local ordinances that change for city to city or county to county. LOL. Yep, it can become quite a challenge to keep them all straight.

  223. Newbie says:

    Vicky have you looked at the Florida conceal carry law, how you apply for it and who you can contact for your training? Becoming a trainer is just as goosey loosey. At least in Kansas you have to apply thru the Sheriff’s office.

  224. Laurali says:

    Vicky said: GZ suffers from retarded emotional development and should never have been given the option of possessing a conceal and carry.

    First haha! And I agree completely. Although he had not been convicted of his “violent” offenses I do believe it should have been a cause for alarm with the conceal and carry. Even if they completely ignored the domestic violence case. He had two charges for assaulting a police officer!

  225. estee1240 says:

    Yeah…”retarded…..” Wonder what his IQ is ??? Also wonder what his grades were like in High School…Seems that if Trayvon’s school records were made available then GZ’s should be too

  226. cali patti says:

    If the SYG law does not apply in this case, GZ could still walk free or be found guilty on a much lower charge. There is self defense possibility and that T.M. attacked G.Z. as G.Z. was retreating. Do I believe GZ was retreating, no. However there might be a way to show that he was at the time of the fight. I do not think murder 2 charge is appropriate even though I do blame this entire event on G. Zimmerman.
    One good thing to happen out of this event, G. Zimmerman will never wear a badge now.

  227. estee1240 says:

    Just wondered…Does GZ have a bonafide JOB…

  228. estee1240~~I think Z worked for an insurance company before the shooting. He is in hiding now, in fear of being killed by some vigilante, and is not able to work.

  229. Cali~~Second degree murder was too harsh of a charge…Angela Corey was trying to appease those who want Z’s neck in a noose.

  230. estee1240 says:

    So I guess he’s on “disability” now…One thing for sure, at least he has a “life” even though it will never be the same as before this incident…He’s got a whole lot of ‘splainin’ to do ( as Ricky Ricardo would say ) …..

  231. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, I tried to answer your question about marijuana on Dave’s blog, but my comment went poof again. It was really a good one too. LOL I did try to explain that the type of paranoia experienced by pot smokers is nothing like that experienced by people with mental illness. Keep in mind, medicinal use is legal in several states here. If violence was a known side effect, that would never be allowed.

    As for the charges against GZ, I don’t feel he has been over charged. He reported to the dispatcher that Trayvon was a minor. He killed a minor which carries that charge in Florida. If GZ was so well versed in C&C and stand your ground laws, he should have taken time to memorize the Florida murder statutes, just in case.

    As I was reading documents, it occurred to me that six months had passed since the crime spree occurred in the community. So, why would GZ jump to the conclusion that TM was up to no good, and why abandoned NHW protocol?

  232. Laurali says:

    Vicky ~ IIRC the crime spree averaged to 1 break in every 8 weeks. I would imagine that is pretty normal in any apartment complex in Florida. I realize they are town homes but Mr. Taffe (?) mentioned since the economy tanked a lot of the homeowners started renting their homes so imo it is no different than apartments.
    I think it is to soon to say Murder 2 is over reaching without actually knowing where they both were in relation to each other when GZ fired his weapon. I do believe at the very least he should be charged manslaughter with actual prison time. jmo

  233. Vicky~~I had the same poofs at Dave’s until I tried a few tricks… after you type your comment, hit enter so your cursor is below the comment, then click preview post, then submit…try that. Thanks for the info here…

  234. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, I have tried everything I can think of. No go. I was actually shocked when I was able to post comments yesterday.

    Laura, after reading you last comment at Dave’s I’m kind of glad my post about pot went poof. Way too much information 🙂

    I have to say, I was rather disappointed several of my comments have failed to make it through over there. I was hoping to generate some discussion over several things Dave wrote. Oh well, such is life. Actually, I am feeling a bit angry with myself right about now to begin with. I had resolved never to allow myself to become obsessed with another case again. And thanks once again to one of the Florida fruitcakes, I can’t seem to back away. Maybe my problem commenting at Dave’s is a sign. It’s not like i dont already have enough on my plate to think about. LOL

  235. Vicky~~make sure you are logged in at Dave’s.. it may show you as logged in but they time you out.. that has happened to me a lot so I log in just before I paste my comment. I write my longer comments in Notepad so I don’t lose them

    Maybe you are not addicted to the Zimmerman case. It may be the great company you share your views with.

  236. Vicky says:

    Absolutely Snoops. the great company is my favorite part.
    I finally made it in over there. I shut down and restarted and logged back in.

  237. Laurali says:

    Well Vicky if you have a lot on your plate do not read the long winded email I just sent you! 🙂
    I think Dave would remind you GZ is a transplant fruitcake. Do not balme Florida for him.

    I like Snoopy’s thinking, it is the company you share your views with. Snoopy I am a little sad because apparently the people in Canada do not have mental health issues like the crazy ones we have here. Care to go open the border gates? We will send a few your way. 🙂 I have not heard of any cases in Canada that compare to the U.S.

  238. Laura~~you don’t hear of any cases in Canada that compare to the US because our RCMP do not kiss and tell. My country is not without crime but our laws and court systems are much different. It may be easier here to get convictions but the sentences are way too lenient.

  239. Laurali says:

    Way to lenient? Last year in Florida a woman who looked very guilty for killing her child was set free because some village lost their idiots. I think we are the poster child for lenient. Not only that when they do go to prison they have cable t.v., 3 meals a day, air conditioning, the best security systems, free health care, free education it is like going to a hotel in a bad area. Hence the bars on the windows. Most of elderly do not have the same luxury as our inmates.

  240. Newbie says:

    Vicky, I told myself I wasn’t ever going to get so emotionally involved in another case. I also thought there wouldn’t be such an outrageous case as the Anthony one. Yet here I am and I’ll be darned if Florida hasn’t done it again !

  241. Newbie says:

    Laurali, you forgot about the ones that are also let out early because of prison crowding….you know like some of the rapists. What they call non-violent prisiners….hmph.

  242. Laurali says:

    Snoopy this is a little off topic so slap me if you must. Will you all hold still, stay in one place. I feel like a ping pong ball.

    The problem with the cases we get so wrapped up in they all involve children. When did our children become disposable? What is so hard about respecting their lives?

  243. Laurali says:

    Newby~ Last week a man right here in the great state of Indiana a man was arrested for 20+ felonies. He is accused of holding 3 children and a mother at gun point. He made one of the boys have sex with his mother while his brothers watched! Makes me sick that my taxes will have to feed this POS. Why can’t we just go back to public hangings?

  244. Newbie says:

    Laurali, what gets me is that man will get protection in prison. He’ll complain or sue the
    State if they do not give him that protection. I think some in this world have lost their minds !

  245. cali patti says:

    In California our prisons are illegally over crowded so our Govenor decided to ship prisoners to county jails. OMG! The county jails filed an injunction to stop the Govenor. I’ve not a clue what is happening now but as a nation we need less life sentences and stop putting druggies in prison. A lock down rehab would be much smarter way to spend prison dollars.

  246. estee1240 says:

    I totally agree, Cali…When my son went to court for stealing my DVR I did everything but get down on my knees and pleaded with the judge to send him to a residential rehab progtram…You guessed it…since it was not a drug charge or in drug court she gave him 6 months…Of course the first thing he did when he got out and had some $$$ was to call his crack dealer…despite being clean and sober for those 6 months…

  247. Laurali says:

    If I have to support someone til they die it should be for a crime against a child, an elderly person, a Veteran or a disabled person.
    Snoopy as far as kissing and telling the media loves to air our dirty laundry. Sometimes I think we are backwoods so that means you have to move to the front of the woods, lol.

  248. cali patti says:

    Estee, 1 of my sons also got into trouble with an event that happened in his room. He wasn’t arrested until days later and was so over charged it was ridiculous. He finally took a misdemeanor charge that can be purged in 3 years. He was 32 with no priors but the DA so over charged he felt lucky and mad to get off as he did. We offered to give him $10,000. and he would need another $10,00 to $15,000 to take case to court. Yes everyone thought he stood a very good chance of winnning his case. He felt being a minimum of $25,000 in debt, he had already spent $7,000 was to much since his record could be purged.
    When people say they would never plea out if innocent do not know what it cost to go to court and fight for your innocence. Not a clue.

  249. The following article is well written and worth reading…

    Race, Tragedy and Outrage Collide After a Shot in Florida

  250. FYI~~ Please be sure and watch all of the following as I would like to know what you think!!

    Here is a recreation of the events of Feb 26th…

    Somewhat based on the new video evidence, Diwataman has put the “known facts”, including timeline, into an interesting and well constructed video consideration. Take a look:

    Reasonable Hypothesis From Treeper Diwataman

    Be sure and watch all the videos here…..

    More Here

  251. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, if wrote exactly what I think of Mr. Tree per you might ban me from your blog. I left one comments at Dave’s. It was about as polite as I can be. I’ll share a few more thoughts later this afternoon.

  252. Vicky~ ~you go right ahead and let us know what you think about Mr Tree. No one gets banned here for giving their opinions. When I post a link to information, it doesn’t mean I am backing that info. I read your comments at Dave’s. I have read so many different scenarios of what people think happened on Feb 26th…. I wonder if we will ever come close to finding out the real truth. I am hoping that the media will win their battle on Friday so we can see some more docs. I am not holding my breath tho. It all depends how Judge Lester interprets the Sunshine Law.

  253. Vicky says:

    Ok Snoopy, here goes. First of all I found his not so subtle racism woven throughout his expose offensive. IMO, the asshole is totally lacking in any level of original thought, since he had to depend on the information gathered from second hand information, thereby making it completely obvious that his life experience is limited to what he as heard or read, as opposed to what he has lived. I doubt very seriously that the man has ever stepped foot in an inner city neighborhood, has probably never seen a Blunt, has never spent any time engaged in a meaningful dialogue with anyone who does not share the color of his skin, and would piss his pants if a black male or any other person of color sat down beside him on a subway in the middle of the day. His only security would be knowing that he had a concealed weapon keeping his tiny little penis company.
    Creeper Treeper would have us believe that experimenting with drugs and suspension from school somehow diminishes a young person’s character and potential for future success. Well I’ve got news for him, I would venture that there are many highly successful people living in his community who engaged in the same type of behavior as TM when they were teens. Thank goodness they were spared an encounter with a gun toating neighborhood watch captain with an ax to grind. With today’s zero tolerance policies in schools, kids are suspended for things that were considered minor disruptions a generation ago. Granted, marijuana in school is a huge no no, but I’d be willing to lay odds that Trayvon wasn’t the only kid holding that day, and that several who were, are model students. My grandson got suspended this past year for “pantsing” one of his buddies during PE. He is far from being a troubled youth.
    Trayvon’s Facebook postings were indeed something to behold from the perspective of a middle class suburbanite, but they weren’t intended for that demographic, and I would venture, had he been afforded the opportunity to live long enough, in about ten years (GZ’s age by the way), he would have shaken his head in disbelief, at his lack of common sense in putting it out on front street for anybody and everybody to read.
    And like I wrote at Dave’s drinking cough syrup to cop a buzz, is nothing new. Nyquil is another one used by people seeking mental impairment. Some go for mouthwash as well. Why does Mr. Treeper think those substances are confiscated from people entering rehab?
    Now, dare I mention his brilliant analysis of the 7-11 video tape here?

  254. Vicky~~ watch your blood pressure! I didn’t think those links I posted would cause so much turmoil. I am not familar with drugs but I am sure learning some things now. I must be really behind the times….what is pantsing?

    My grandson got suspended this past year for “pantsing” one of his buddies during PE.

  255. Vicky says:

    I would like to add one more thing (for now). I have not made a single judgement about this case,based upon the actions of either individual, that are completely unrelated to this case. their juvenile comments on Facebook and/or my space have no relevance to me. I am only interested in the facts as they occurred that night from the moment GZ left his home and Trayvon reentered the gated community until GZ exercised his right to legal counsel.
    I am not convinced that GZ is a racist, but I do believe he possesses extremist views regarding his individual rights. I also feel that many who have come out in support of him demonstrate attitudes I find very disturbing. I don’t want to see GZ punished beyond that which appropriately fits the crime, and until I have to opportunity to read or hear his multiple versions of what happened that night, and can view additional documents related to the crime scene I will try to reserve judgement on what I feel his punishment should be.
    There are a few observations I have already made regarding the photos of GZ that have been released, but will keep those to myself for the time being.

  256. Vicky says:

    LOL Snoopy, I had to ask the same question. I think of it as a natural consequence of wearing pants or shorts that are two sizes too large. Pantsing is taking hold of the other guys pant legs and pulling them down, exposing the boxers underneath.

  257. Vicky~~I thought pantsing meant goosing the other person. lol OMG, what is this world coming to?

  258. A consortium of 13 media companies, including The Associated Press, is challenging efforts to seal certain documents in the second-degree murder case of the neighborhood watch volunteer charged with killing Trayvon Martin.

    The list includes most of Florida’s major media organizations. The motions filed Tuesday challenged efforts by both prosecutors and George Zimmerman’s attorney to prevent the release of witness names and statements that he made to police officers.

    A hearing is set for Friday.


  259. estee1240 says:

    Very interesting…I bet the “media” prevails on most issues…Hope this will be televised.

  260. Estee~~ I hope the media prevails too but since both the defense and prosecution wants to have the evidence sealed, I am unsure how Judge Lester will rule. Judge Perry did not seal the evidence in Casey’s case except for a couple things that are standard to keep under seal.

  261. Vicky says:

    Sorry for being so crude in parts of my earlier comment. It just never ceases to amaze me that so many people want to paint a portrait of individuals from a very limited and often narrow minded point of view. I have spent my entire adult life working with individuals who are considered to be “at risk” many of whom come from mulit generational poverty, who are children of alcoholics and or drug addicts, who abuse drugs themselves, who have been arrested or incarcerated, wand have a mental illness or developmentalmdisability, who have lost family members to violence, and/or have lived in inner cities. I have also spent that same adult life as an upper middle class suburban woman with friends and family who have never experienced any contact with the aforementioned population. My point is, I have been blessed with the opportunity to view the world from both the trenches and from the ivory tower. Some of the most useful things I have learned along the way, are that when it comes down to it, we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. We all view the world and make judgements based upon our life experiences, even if those judgements are flawed. We can all learn something from another person, no matter what their background. And we all deserve a chance at life.

  262. Vicky says:

    I would also like to inform Creepr Treeper, that not all black males look alike, and at least one of the photos he has posted in his expose, the one supposed to be Trayvon flipping the bird, is not Trayvon. What an idiot! Given that fact, I wonder if the comments he snipped from the Facebook Account he attributed that photo to, even belong to Trayvon. So I am now headed to Facebook to see how many teen aged Trayvon Martins there are with accounts.

  263. Vicky~~go get that Creep! You are wild tonight, girl. lol

  264. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, that is not the same Trayvon. I enlarged the profile photo on Creeps site and it is not the same it is the kid flipping the bird.. I found another Trayvon on FB, same profile pic as the one used in Creeper’s expose, but the content of the page has been removed. There are three different Trayvon Martins on FB.
    What a complete and total ass that man is. he is building a case against and slandering a victim based upon another person’s FB postings. I am now going to refrain from outwardly expressing what I hope happens to that racist SOB.

  265. Karen C. says:

    Vicky- I wonder if Treep is the same or taking off from the nazi KKK-er, Klankannon (or whatever), who had hacked into the real Trayvon’s accounts and messed with his online profiles. This was all outed already on Gawker and then followed up on the Huffington Post. Yes, there are more than one TM out there and the Klan and neo-nazi racists have had a field day at his expense. Disgusting.

  266. Vicky says:

    Oh and let me give additional credit where credit is due. Sundancecracker is a dumbass too. The expose is posted by him but the fountain of disinformation is attributed to both idiots. You just can’t fix stupid, and in this case, it might just be contagious. So as not to expose myself too much stupidity in one day, I am not going back into that contaminated environment.

  267. Vicky says:

    Thanks for the info Karen. I will go looking. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if they are associated. I haven’t done a lot of Internet surfing about the case. I have pretty much read here and at Dave’s and viewed links posted by Snoopy and articles in local newspapers. I guess I wasted a lot of time this evening uncovering old info. LOL

  268. Karen C. says:

    Go to Stormfront (nazis)- but you might have to dig a bit this week, and there’s PILES of poop to go through, too, or just Google Klankannon 4chan- see how much of 4chan you can take without gagging. And keep your sanity intact and go right to Gawker since they did the hard work on this.

  269. Karen C. says:

    The only thing I can say about all this, is that if it keeps these wackos too busy on their keyboards to get into their gown-things and cone-things to march, great!

  270. Vicky says:

    True that KarenC!!!

    Sadly, even if GZ had no racial motivation for causing this tragedy, he has become a hero to the armpit of society.

  271. Karen C. says:

    Vicky- this is the link to the Gawker expose: http://gawker.com/5897485/white-supremacist-hacks-trayvon-martins-email-account-leaks-messages-online?tag=trayvonmartin
    Thought I’d make it a wee bit easier to find, because since then they’ve had dozens more articles.

    If you do go to Gawker, (and it has a lot of good stuff on this case) be warned- unless you have a super strong stomach, you don’t want to click on the pics of the Miami-“Acid zombie” victim’s face (front page pixilated). I have actually seen worse (not much worse!) in real life at a hospital, but, yeah, his face, save mouth-to-chin area, was ripped right off. News reports about both eyes being gone are incorrect- his right eye is still there, and able to move about as can be seen by comparing the two pics. Don’t even get me started- Snoopy, I just might be joining you up in NS if things keep devolving here they way they seem to be!

  272. Vicky says:

    Thanks for themlink Karen. There really seems to be no limit to the depths some people will go to spread hate. And yes, most of the information used in the creepy- cracker expose originated from that cyber terrorist. They just used it as a basis to generate additional crap.

  273. FYI~~ After what I just read, I think it would be best if we don’t give Gawker and the likes any more recognition on this blog. I probably started this whole mess when I posted the links to the recreation by that Tweeper. I had no idea what kind of people they were and I apologize. These creeps remind me too much like the bullies Dave and I put up with. I think Molly Maid may do a clean sweep in here within the next 24 hours. I am responsible for what is posted on this blog and I cannot leave myself wide open for anymore death threats from God knows who.

    PS…Valhall had to shut down a thread on this case before she packed things in. I see that the thread at Reality Chatter has been shut down…. I don’t want to make it three…let’s just weigh the evidence from here on out… Thanks, Snoopy

  274. Laurali says:

    Snoopy I did not click on any of the links, I just wanted to say it is obvious to me that you are just looking at all the facts and opinions in this case. Only thing I noticed (after reading the comments) you really had no clue how twisted some Americans can be. Not your fault, I think it is safe to say we all appreciate you showing us all angles. But I agree this angle we probably do not need to see so I won’t look!

  275. Laura~~thanks. I guess I lead a sheltered life here in Canada. I cannot fathom the hate and racial tensions that seem to be constant in your country and I just want to avoid talking about them here as it is a no win situation. I am not going to delete any comments made thus far but I hope we can go forward and leave the racial issues out of things and just discuss the evidence in this case. I see no harm in voicing our opinions on the SYG laws and concealed weapons.

  276. Four key witnesses to the deadly encounter between Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman gave statements to the police shortly after the occurrence that appeared to support Zimmerman’s claim that he fatally shot Martin in self-defense. However, when these witnesses were re-interviewed by agents of the special state prosecutor weeks later, they changed their stories in ways that weakened Zimmerman’s self-defense claim. Although it is not unusual for witnesses when re-interviewed to remember new details, reconcile inconsistencies, or even contradict statements originally made, the fact that all of these witnesses changed their original accounts — given to the police when their memory of the event was fresh and they were not being interviewed by prosecutors trying to build a homicide case against Zimmerman — raises the troubling implication of improper witness-coaching. Here are the original accounts and altered versions of these witnesses:

    Read more here….

    Were Trayvon Martin Witnesses Coached to Change Their Stories?

  277. Vicky says:

    Snoopy, it really concerns me that witnesses have changed their statements, especially if there are material differences. I would hate to think that public opinion and fear of reprisal would lead anyone to alter their account of what they heard and/or observed. I do not want to see GZ unfairly charged.
    On another note, if GZ has changed his version aboit what happened in such a way that his latest version more readily fits his claim of self defense, I don’t want to see him get off Scott free based upon a lie.
    I am slowly arriving at the conclusion that the truth about what happened that evening lies somewhere in the middle of the “theories” that are out there. I have been looking at distances and timelines in an effort to get a better feel for what might have happened.

    It is a sad commentary on our country that not only do we have to worry about coming face to face with an armed criminal, but we must also worry about coming face to face some SYG fanatic deciding that we are up to no good. In both situations, the individuals involved are in a state of adrenaline overdrive and can result in tragedy.

  278. Vicky ~~I will be surprised if they let the witnesses change their accounts of what happened. I can see one or two of them adding something to thier original testimony that they may have overlooked. You can almost take it as a given that all these witnesses kept a close eye on the media and then their stories changed. It can very well be that a few of them may have been coerced into altering their accounts of what happened. I can believe anything when it comes to this case as it is so controversial. You are not allowed to tamper with potential witnesses but that doesn’t say people abide by the law.

    I just wish we could have privy to Zimmerman’s interviews so we can see how much he changed the events to suit his own purpose of the SYG and self-defense. His ex magistrate father may have advised him what to say. Probably that old fart Taaffee threw in his two cents worth. It will be interesting to see what the media will achieve on Friday but I am not holding my breath. We will find out just how strong the Sunshine Law is and does it carry much weight. I think Angela Corey would like to change it and it seems O’Mara would go along with her. Dave told me that he is going to attend the hearing on Friday. It takes place at 1:30pm and hopefully it will be live streamed.

  279. Vicky says:

    Now now Snoopy, Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. 🙂 That’s what I am told by my kids every time I express my desire for gun control. 😦
    Seriously, what a sad commentary on the United States. I wonder if it ever occurred to the NRA or if they actually care, that conceal and carry is just as advantageous to those with criminal intent as it is to “law abiding citizens” or that the inability to legally conceal a weapon might have kept people on the fringes on the straight and narrow.

    As for the child who was shot by the police officer, although I feel for the kid and his family, I feel more sorry for the cop. There was no way for that PO to know the kid was reaching for a bat, as opposed to a gun. Who the heck carries a metal bat down their pants?

  280. Laurali says:

    Vicky ~ you don’t carry a metal bat in your pants? I thought everyone did. I am sure this will be a struggle for the Officer for years to come.

    Now as far as the witnesses changing stories I will add my 2 cents for each one of them. 1) Maybe she is sure now because she has saw photos of both and she is going by size. 2) Maybe LE did not ask his demeanor but investigators asked the tough questions. 3) She should leave glasses or contacts in until she goes to bed, please do not call her as a witness. 4) Maybe this witness decided he did not know who was calling for help because he really did not know. Maybe he was told by LE the night of the shooting it was Zimmerman screaming. Another witness was so upset by hearing the screams and she put in her official statement LE told her “if it makes you feel any better the guy screaming for help is okay.” Or something to that effect.

    This is just my opinion but I would like to think our Justice System does not witness tamper. Can I have 1 positive thought, please? It is amazing how different this case is from the Anthony case but it almost feels like we have been down this road before.

  281. Laurali says:

    I found this little bit about LE on the night of the shooting. From a CBS article from March 27th:
    Some witnesses report that police who interviewed them “corrected” their testimony, with officers telling the witnesses that it was Zimmerman, not Martin, who was being attacked and crying out for help. Another witness said police refused to hear her story that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense, saying the police “blew us off.”

    IMO it seems the witnesses have the same memory problems as Zimmerman. Prosecutors have said he gave 3 different versions.

  282. Vicky says:

    Laura, By all means, feel free to keep that bat down your pants. LOL But, I’ll stick with pepper spray in my pocket. 🙂

    I don’t think our justice system tampers with witnesses, but I do believe the public outcry over TM’s death might impact recall. However, you do make 4 very valid points regarding the witness follow up statements. A lot of stuff was assumed in the first hours following the incident.

  283. Laurali says:

    Vicky~ Thank you! I do not get why many lump Trayvon with bad kids. His teachers have no reason to lie. They have stated he was a good kid, most teachers who lose a child due to their lifestyle talk about how they went down the wrong path. But I have yet to read a negative report from one adult other than morons who see him as a black thug. I just do not understand the hatred for our children because of color or nationality. Heart breaking.
    I have never smoked marijuana, but I know many people who do. To each their own and if that is the very worse he did well than thank God. He went to the morgue as John Doe. In the reports they made mention of him being finger printed at the scene and no “hits” came back. LE once Tray had been identified called Miami and they also said they had no arrest records for him. 1 call because Tray’s father wanted them to talk to his son about drugs. If we are using police records to label him a thug than I ask what does it say about Zimmerman’s character? He HAS been arrested. Leave the past behind and focus on why Z thought it okay to shoot and kill a minor!

  284. Vicky says:

    Laura, I can’t imagine how Trayvon’s parents must feel. They lost their son and have had to defend his life, rather than celebrate it. one would definitely think that if Trayvon was a complete and total juvenile delinquent, someone with personal knowledge would have spoken out by now. I think it’s fair to conclude that he was pretty much your run of the mill teenager, who made a few bad choices that were addressed by both the school and his parents. It seems obvious to me that he was raised by parents who had dreams for their children and worked hard to make them come true. His brother is in college and Trayvon had plans to attend college. It is also obvious to me that Trayvon’s day to day conduct was not such that his friends and family feared he would some day meet a tragic end.

  285. Here is an interesting case to see what the outcome will be. The hearing is today.
    Assistant State Attorney Frank George, a member of the team that prosecuted Casey Anthony, will argue for the state. The hearing is expected to last several hours.
    An attorney for a woman accused of murder in the shooting death of her boyfriend in 2009 will argue today that she should be immune from prosecution under Florida’s controversial stand-your-ground law.

    According to court records, Sheila Rosenheimer shot her boyfriend, Craig Bonnano, after a stormy several-year relationship and, according to her defense, repeated abuse and domestic violence.

    Did woman fatally shoot boyfriend in self defense?

    [edit] Here is the outcome of today’s hearing…..

    Judge rejects stand-your-ground claim in 2009 fatal shooting

    3:46 p.m. EST, May 31, 2012|
    By Jeff Weiner, Orlando Sentinel

    A woman accused of murder in the 2009 shooting death of her boyfriend was denied a request for immunity from prosecution on Thursday under Florida’s stand-your-ground law.

    In court, Sheila Rosenheimer testified that in the moments before the shooting, Craig Bonnano choked her until she couldn’t breathe: “I grabbed his hand and kind of shoved his hand, and he went back and the gun went off,” killing him, she said. “Everything just happened so fast.”

    However, prosecutor Frank George successfully argued that stand-your-ground didn’t apply, because Rosenheimer, 49, testified that she fired the shot accidentally.

    Judge Mike Murphy dismissed her motion for immunity. Rosenheimer faces a first-degree murder charge.

  286. George Zimmerman, the defendant in one of the most-watched murder cases in the country, on Thursday added a new lawyer to his defense team: veteran Orlando attorney Donald R. West, who specializes in murders.

    Attorney Mark O’Mara, lead defense counsel in the case, plans to make a formal announcement today.

    George Zimmerman’s legal team adds murder specialist Don West

  287. Cali Patti says:

    Huffington Post reported that G. Zimmerman’s bail has been revoked and he must report to jail within 48 hrs. The court sited G. Z. mislead the court to the amount of m0ney he had available and having two passports. G.Z. had applied for a new passport saying his original was lost then the lost one was found. Well G. Z. only turned one passport in. G. Z. is being tried in the media.
    My son pointed out although he did not understand the use of a hand gun, G. Z. did have the right to question a hoodie wearing youth what he was doing in the neighborhood. Hmmmm, a idea that did not cross my mind.

    I stop and ask unknown cars/people all the time where I live, ask, if I can help them, if they are lost and if they say they are looking for a friend, I ask the name of friend or address. There should be NO unknown vehicles out here w/o a reason. Not a thru road.
    I even asked a sheriff once what he was doing out here, NOT a smart move of mine. A friend with me did some fast talking and got me out of that. Jeeze, the look on that sheriff’s face was pure ticked off.

  288. Laurali says:

    I am so glad this Judge will not put up with being lied to. Not a good idea to go to court swear to tell the truth and then lie. He is starting to show some serious character flaws. Different versions to LE. On the 911 call he said he thought Martin was a teenager yet at his bond hearing he apologized and said he thought Trayvon was his age.

    Is Zimmerman a distant cousin of the Anthony family? The lies just flow out of his mouth. Yet we are suppose to believe he was attacked by Trayvon.

  289. Ladies~~I was hanging out at Dave’s blog today so all the info re today’s hearing is posted there. Dave attended the hearing today…

  290. The transcripts of the coded phone calls are in this motion plus the info re the passports.

    State’s Motion to Revoke Bond-in pdf

    Here is a tidbit I found at WFTV

    O’Mara said he expects to call on 50 witnesses who need to be deposed before he decides whether to file a “stand your ground” motion which would ask for a hearing before a judge without a jury.

    At the hearing, Zimmerman would argue self-defense under the Florida law which gives wide latitude to use deadly force rather than retreat in a fight if people believe they are in danger of being killed or seriously injured.

  291. Vicky says:

    Cali Patti I think ther is a huge difference between taking the direct approach and asking someone why they are in the neighborhood and following them for a period of time with no explanation. Wouldn’t one think that striking up a conversation, especially from the safety of a car, to let them know their presence has been noted, would make someone think twice about committing a crime, if that was their intent. I agree with your son that there is nothing wrong with asking. But, there is something wrong with putting someone on the defense by following them and not giving an explanation when asked why, rather answering a question with a question. when Trayvon asked him why he was following him, there is absolutely no reason he shouldn’t have identified his role with the NHW, the signs are posted on the gates, so I would assume that Trayvon had seen them and a clear and concise answer would have diffused the situation.

    Now, GZ has gone and created a court record of being deceptive. He has also demonstrated that he is self serving SOB and has a complete disregard for the letter of the law. I honestly believe he spent time going over in his mind exactly what he would do and say if he ever found himself in a situation where he used the stand your ground law to kill someone, and my guess is he already had a plan in place to use social media to generate a “defense fund” if he was facing legal action. He sat idly by while his wife lied to the court, and there is video evidence that they planned in advance to do just that. MOM really has his work cut out for him in defending his client. I wonder if the money raised to date has already been encumbered to pay for his fees. If so, it will be interesting to see what transpires during the next bond hearing.

  292. Thankyou for posting the link to the alleged code talking transcripts Snoops….PS did you get my email about the loonyCanadian ex of Karla H on the run for murder,He has also been posting sick animal cruelty vids of his exploits torturing kittens feeding them to snakes.His latest production was titled One Lunatic One Ice Pick…He then set about murdering his lover bound to a chair .Filming it as he then cut up the body an eat various parts.He parcelled up bodyparts an sent a hand an foot to polital partys in Canada.Also posted the murder vid on line.He is beleived to have flown to Paris from Ontario or Montreal day after the murder.

  293. Ecossie ~~yes, I got your email, thank you! It has been all over the news about the sicko. I mentioned it at my Coffee Café where we discuss off topic things. Here is the link to the CC…


    I heard on the news that one man in the States killed and ate his lover and then the one in Miami, Florida who ate the face off the homeless man. Matey, maybe we should all go to the moon as our earth is not safe anymore.

  294. Vicky~~thanks for the link.. On Sunday afternoon, about 40 minutes before the 2:30 p.m. deadline to surrender, Zimmerman was listed as an inmate on the jail website. He was listed as being held without bail and having $500 in his jail account.

    I keep hearing that Z made an application for a passport 2 weeks after the shooting. Z got a passport in 2002 and it expired in May 2012. He made another applcation for a passport in 2004 as he thought his original passport was lost or stolen. That passport expires in 2014 and apparently is in a safety deposit box. This is the passport that should have been turned over, in fact both of them should have been. The media was false in saying Z applied for a pp two weeks after the shooting. Had they read the state’s motion, they would see that they made a mistake.

  295. Laurali says:

    Looks like he gained some weight.

  296. I heard that the jail calls between Z and his wife will be released today…

    Video and write up from WFTV

  297. SANFORD, Fla. –
    O’Mara plans to file a motion Monday for a bond hearing to get Zimmerman out of jail but admits it could be an uphill battle.

    The bond hearing for Zimmerman may not come quickly because sources said Lester will be out of town for the next couple of days.

    Zimmerman certainly has some explaining to do, but his legal team has not decided if he will speak on his own behalf.

    “My understanding was that Judge Lester seemed to indicate that he wanted testimony. That is a very complex decision to make about what effect that would have, not only at the hearing itself, but any future testimony, so we haven’t made that decision yet,” O’Mara said.


  298. Cali Patti says:

    Zimmerman is probably safer in jail than out. With Zimmermans credibility now now proven in court to be in question I doubt the judge will be letting Zimmerman out. Judges hate being lied to. Where Zimmerman had a chance of being listened to and possibly believed, Zimmerman now faces a judge that will doubt everyting G.Z. has to say. He only has himself to blame.

  299. Vicky says:

    Evening all, I honestly don’t have a problem with GZ being out on bail. I would rather see his PayPal patrons flipping the bill for his living expenses than the tax payers of Florida. What I do have a problem with is the fact that he has planted his happy behind in a location that makes it impossible for him to attend hearings in a timely manner if and when he selectively determines he will grant the court an audience, without being compelled by Judge L. to do so.
    It also irks me that people are claiming foul over the fact that he did not have time to come out of hiding to attend last week’s hearing, once it was determined that his bond status was at issue. The judge was following the law, and was under no obligation to hear from GZ in making his determination to revoke his bond. GZ should have taken time to educate himself on the law, the way he did SYG, before he made a conscious decision to misrepresent his financial status to the court. Ignorance of the law is not a defense.
    I am also disgusted with the fact that there are members of society who are threatening bodily harm to GZ and/or members of is family, thus creating the situation where he is cooling his jets out of state. They are making a mockery of our system of justice and are a disgrace to humanity.
    I also found it interesting that MOM has stated that GZ has been wrongfully placed in a position to prove his innocence in this case. I disagree. When he claimed SYG status, he placed himself in a position to prove his innocence. If MOM is not planning to request a SYG hearing, he needs to chit or get off the pot. As long as that possibility is out there, many people are going to expect him to prove his innocence. Once that matter has been put to rest, I hope the masses will respect the law and allow GZ to either move on with his life, if it is determined SYG is applicable, or allow him the presumption of innocence until his case goes to trial.

  300. Vicky says:

    It is a sad commentary on society, when an act of violence that resulted in the death of a young man, is answerd by threats of violence and racist retoric. I’m proud to declare that I am perfectly capable of standing my ground without spreading hate or threatening/calling for violence against those might who are different from me, that do not agree with me or who have angered me.

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